The Phantom

[Evaline Cuomo]

A murdering mad man with the face of death, a musical genuis, the man with the mask....

Christine's Angel of Music is the Phantom (or Erik) and he will stop at nothing to keep her.

Here is the place to discuss your thoughts on the Phantom.

[Ubaldo Piangi]

I actually like the Phantom much better than Raoul. Raoul is nothing but a lovesick twit who only looks brave because of the swordfight with Erik. Erik could've easily knocked him off and kept Christine forever. I know that if I were her, I would've stayed with the masked musical genius. Besides, what girl doesn't like a dark, dramatic guy who can serenade her anytime he likes? ;)

[Meg Giry]

Originally posted by Victoria Greneaux
Besides, what girl doesn't like a dark, dramatic guy who can serenade her anytime he likes? ;)

Me, when said guy is also extremely psychologically unstable ;)

[Opera Ghost]

Psychologically unstable, lol! Phantom's brilliant - I prefer him to Raoul because I love the Phantom's dark and mysterious history and appearance. Can't say the film Phantom looks like an Erik though...

OG

[The Phantom]

Though he is psychologically insane I can related to some of the expressions that he has given in the operas and movies made of The Phantom of the Opera. I can understand the loneliness that he feels when Christine leaves him for Raoul, and I can relate to the dark moods that he feels. I went through a time of minor depression, so relating is sort of easy for me.

[The Khanum]

Erik is absolutely brilliant. I love the man to death. There is an aura about him that entices me, a beautifully mysterious and dark feel to him. There has never been a man like Erik, because he is one of a kind. And Susan Kay makes him so vividly alive in her novel...she gives him a soul, a background, a distinct personality that allows each and every one of her readers to connect with him on some level.

I adore Erik. He is my hero.

[The Phantom]

Erik is such an artist at so many forms of art and music, its so amazing to see what he can compose when he puts his mind to it. He forgets everything else and sits for days at a time only concentrating on his task ahead whether it be Christine or Don Juan Triumphant. Does this compensate for his madness though?

[The Khanum]

Call me crazy, but I find his madness...alluring in its own right. My friend and I had a discussion about this once...she insisted Raoul was the better choice because he's kind and protective and not crazy. I argued that her last point was not a pro, but a con.

::Shrugs:: I don't know, maybe I'm just sort of insane myself...

[Antoin Dolohov]

Originally posted by The Phantom
Erik is such an artist at so many forms of art and music, its so amazing to see what he can compose when he puts his mind to it. He forgets everything else and sits for days at a time only concentrating on his task ahead whether it be Christine or Don Juan Triumphant. Does this compensate for his madness though?

I think it more than comensates for the madness. The Phantom is a genius, and this is displayed to us through this total concentration on Christine, Don Juan Trimphant or anything else. The madness of the phantom is basically the genius that he has in various outlets.

[The Phantom]

YouÂ’ve got that right Daniel, the Phantom is definitely mad to say the least. Though I admire him for being able to concentrate on something fully and with such passion, that it brings him madness. I wish I could do the same, except with out all the psycho-ness that he brought upon himself, lol.

[Antoin Dolohov]

Lol, it's a pity bout the entire psycho-path thing, but the Phantom is truely dedicated to the tasks at hand. He seemingly disappeared just so he could compose Don Juan Triumphant. With it's completion the madness got a little more out of control, but I agree with the fact that this is an admirable quality that he possesses.

[Meg Giry]

As a dramatic character in a work of fiction, I think the Phantom is right up there in terms of great stage and literary characters. But that still doesn't mean I actually like him ;)

[Phantom of Eternia]

I think Erik is one of the greatest literary characters of all time next to Count Dracula and Frankensteins's Daemon. I love how Leroux made him have a death's head for a face, Erik is one of my favorite fictional Characters of all time.

[Always_Erik_Fan]

Originally posted by The_Phantom_is_Sexy
Call me crazy, but I find his madness...alluring in its own right. My friend and I had a discussion about this once...she insisted Raoul was the better choice because he's kind and protective and not crazy. I argued that her last point was not a pro, but a con.

::Shrugs:: I don't know, maybe I'm just sort of insane myself...

~The_Phantom_is_Sexy

~lol~ You pretty much described exactly how I feel! I love Erik even with his insaneness (which i believe Christine caused!!!) Maybe I actually love him so much BECAUSE of that... Hmm... Interesting thought. Thanks for making me think!!! ((And the Phantom IS VERY SEXY! Love your u/n and siggy too!))

[cinty]

I am an Erik fan. He has such a beautiful soul deep down. He shows it at the end, when he makes a beautiful and heroic sacrifice. He is only a murderere because no one has ever been there to tell him it was wrong to do that sort of thing. How was he supposed to know it was wrong. Poor darling Erik. My favourite line of his is "I am there Inside!" because there is such a pun on it. He is there, INside. Inside. His soul is there, inside of him. She just has to find it. What a shame that it only takes her to the very end to find it. And then it is too late. She loves Raoul and wants to go with him. (fair enough to- I'm a big Raoul fan as well)
Has anyone thought of this? Now, at last, Erik is getting the sympathy and love he deserved so many years ago. At last people understnad him. thankyou, ALW!!

[IamErik771]

Erik is by far my favorite character in POTO, and possibly my favorite fictional character of all. In my opinion, Christine should have stayed with him. Both he and Raoul truly loved her, but in the end, Erik needed her more. Any girl in the 19th century would have wanted to marry a rich and handsome viscount, but it takes someone special to be able to love a hideously deformed man because of what he is inside.

I think the truly remarkable thing about Erik is that although mankind (including his own mother!) treated him with nothing but fear and hatred, he was still capable of loving someone enough to do anything for them. I think that, above all, is why so many Phans love him. :mask:

[Christine Daaé]

I completely fell in love with Erik after reading the novel. Frankly, his madness was something that was forced upon him. He was taught by his own parents that he was the ugliest thing on earth, and in Persia, that killing for others' pleasure was the only thing he was good for. Then, after Christine tells him she loves him, she goes behind his back and plots with Raoul about escaping him.

However, his madness was cured, after Christine showed him pity. Love really does change everything, as another ALW song goes. Faith moves mountains, love changes everything.

He was a genius -- a singer, a musician, an artist, an architect, a magician, a ventriloquist, a chef, a conoisseur of fine wine . . . there's no telling what he could do. Unfortunately, genius and insanity are linked. But if he were treated well, he could have done better.

~ Zelda de le Fantôme

[Countess Cain]

He truly is a great character, Erik. Way deeper than I had originally thought. He's capable of many things... Love... Murder... But he's still believeable in all forms.

So yeah, he's awesome.

[s_ganninger]

i love the phantoms voice its so addicting (in the movie)Gerry has such a nice voice.

[Countess Cain]

I think he has his moments, Gerard Butler. With more practice, I think he would have been fantastic.

[The Khanum]

I LOVE his little Scottish accent...that you can't hear in POTO... ::Grumbles::

But has anybody seen Game of Their Lives? He has the most horrible American accent I've ever heard...it's so adorable! Kudos to Gerry! He's supposed to be an Italian-American...but his Scottish-ness is just too cute, he can't contain it...

::Wanders away, cooing incessently over Gerry's accent::

So adorable...

Sorry, was this supposed to be just about his singing voice? Uhh...yeah. He does a pretty good job, considering he never performed onstage or anything before.

::Goes back to ranting about the Scottish-ness::

~Erik is my Hero

[cinty]

He's okay, considering he had such limited training. But once you listen to Michael Crawford or Hugh Panaro...... yeah well, better not get me going.
I love his Scottish accent too, especially in Timeline! :)

[Opera Ghost]

His voice is brilliant, especially for someone who has only had limited voice coaching. He puts such feeling, passion - he puts the Phantom's mood into his voice and you hear the sadness/angryness. Talented. I love his voice; in my opinion I think he's better than Michael Crawford. I prefer Gerry's "rock 'n roll" style, the roughness. But I'm sad you can't hear his lurvly Scottish accent :D I love his speaking voice!

[The_Persian]

I think Butlers voice is better then Crawfords, but Crawford sounds more like a Phantom....
I love how butler does music of the night, but i think that crawford does a better job on the sadder parts, like on "i gave you my music, made your song take wing..." and the part where he is listening to the music box, at the very end.

[Wishing]

I agree with The_Persian. I think that Gerry emphasizes on certain parts more, but some times he sounds kind of weak. They are both very good in their own ways.

[The Khanum]

One of my absolute favorite parts of Gerry's singing is actually a scene where he isn't actually singing. During D.O.M, when he shouts, "This darkness deep as HELL!" ::Le sigh:: I absolutely love that.

~Erik is my Hero

[The_Persian]

I think he does a really good job with the "close you eyes let your spirit start to sooooooooooooooar"
but was he helped out by a computer?? hmmmmmmmmm

[Night feather]

I love gerry's voice... It has a danger and sensuality that Michael Crawford has never had....

I totally root for John Owen Jones, best phantom ever.... But Gerry jsut has soemthing in his voice, and he does a fantastic job considering how little training he's got.

[The Khanum]

Wow, there's a lot more Gerry support around here than I thought... Yay! Go Gerry! He did such an amazing job, considering the only singing role he had before this was as the lead singer in a rock & roll band in college.

~Erik is my Hero

[cinty]

Originally posted by The_Persian
I think he does a really good job with the "close you eyes let your spirit start to sooooooooooooooar"
but was he helped out by a computer?? hmmmmmmmmm
yes, and did you know that the "niiiiggghhhttt" that he holds for ages at the end of the song was computer enhanced as well.:rolleyes:
At least Michael Crawford can actualy hold his notes. Much longer than GB can.

[syioandthephantom]

I think Michael and Gerry are equal. They bith have different strenghts and weaknesses.

[Why So Silent]

I agree with Erik is my Hero, gotta LURV the Scotish Accent ::huggles the accent, if possible:: Apart from timeline, you can here it in Reign of Fire (but he dies, arg!) and of course Dear Frankie, which was the most I've ever awwed in two hours...oh, wait, the Phantom of the Opera, yeah...

I think he did a marvelous job, with the limited voice training and everything everyone has already said that has no need to be repeated. But did they really use computers on those two parts? That'd be kinda sad, but my sister and myself were in awe at how long and how high those notes went. Also, I love the fact that he has a deep voice. My friend has a CD from the Broadway musical (I don't know who sings there XD I've also never seen the musical, how sad!!) and we listened to it and compared, and I much preferred Gerry's deep voice to the rather high (though much better trained) voice from the musical. Sorry if this is heretic or something.
Toodles
Why So Silent

[Opera Ghost]

Originally posted by cinty
yes, and did you know that the "niiiiggghhhttt" that he holds for ages at the end of the song was computer enhanced as well.:rolleyes:

Yes, I doubt many people could sing that long a note. I can't, although I'm a trained trumpet player and am able to play for very long periods of time without breathing :D
The note on "You will curse the day you did not do all that the Phantom asked of yoooooooooooouuuuuuuuuu" goes on for a long time too, but I can sing that. If I start at the beginning of the syllable, I can just about reach past when the music finishes completly (on the soundtrack).

[bahamamama21890]

Yeah, that note in MOTN is really long. I try to hold it, but I can't. I have one friend who can, though, he is a really good singer and plays tuba so I'm not really surprised. Of course, he always has to brag about his lung capacity by stretching any note out for like a minute straight, the little show off. :) lol.

[Luciana]

I really liked GB and although he's the only Phantom i've seen, i think he did really well. He and Emmy had really good moments together. I dont think i would have liked the movie as well if it hadn't been him.

[Ubaldo Piangi]

Just a friendly reminder, please try and capitalize where it's needed, and refrain from using Netspeek ("u" for "you", "sux" for "sucks", etc.). ;)

[bahamamama21890]

Yes, I completely agree. It completely soothes me to listen to his voice, and I love it as well. :)

[Luciana]

I know that he's mad, but in truth, we all have our moments. Lonelyness can drive people to extremes. There was a period in my admitadly short life that I felt so alone that I did some questionable things to release that pain. Only by someone showing me that i wasn't alone, and that people still cared did I stop myself from doing something rash that I may not have been able to regret.

All he really needs is someone there beside him to care about him and to prove to him that he didn't have to go through life alone. I have never found anyone a hopeless cause, and I don't plan to start now. He could have had a brilliant chance at life, and he was a genius. He could have done so much if someone had just dared to be his knight in shining armor and rescue him.

[YoungGiry]

I can sympathize, even empathize with his madness. What does it matter after all? Sometimes the supposadly "sane" ones are the ones who are truly mad. And any genius is to some extent mad. And to my the genius aspect of his personality is fascinating, an his madness would not make me overlook that.

[The_Persian]

I far prefer Erik to Raoul.... he is mysterious, talented, and and beautiful (er... on the inside)
originally poster by Phantom of Eternia
Erik is one of my favorite fictional Characters of all time.
fictional?? hmmmmm

[YoungGiry]

Yes, The_Persian, I agree with you there. I'm not so certain that Erik is completly fictional, and he wouldn't be happy to have that implied...

[The Phantom]

I've had numerous discussions with some of my friends and theres been studies that there was a "form" or Erik living around the time that the books would have featured. Because personally, I think that Erik's character is too complex to have been just a fictional piece of Leroux's imagination. Right?

[The_Persian]

I agree with you completly Phantom!!!
I cant think about him not being real anyways.... it depresses me. I believe so totally that he existed.... exisits!!
"He's with me even now...."
:D

[Christine Daaé]

I do believe he existed. If you go to the article about it on www.phantomoftheopera.info -- "The Opera Cellars and the Legend as Passed Down by the Opera Employees" -- you'll see why.

~ Zelda de le Fantôme

[PhantomLover05]

I must agree that Gerards voice is a perfect fit for the part! It's mysterious, dangerous, and sexy! Which is exactly what it needs to be! He may not be the most talented singer ever, but his voice is intriguing!

I forgot to mention that everyone time I hear him sing the "Point of No Return", I melt! I must admit I'm jealous of Emmy in that scene (not to mention every other scene as well!)!

[The_Persian]

originally posted by whencatsattackI love the combination of his voice, the emotion he puts into it, and his facial expressions are interesting. It's so strange...I am fascinated by his facial expressions while he sings.

There is this one part of "Point of No Return" that literally makes me weak in the knees everytime. I'm new to phandom as well, and don't have much to compare it to, but I have to say that I adore his voice.

I think the reaon his facial expressions are so, well, expressive, is because since they pre recorded the whole thing, they dont have to worry about what there voice sounds like, say, if they smile while singing. Does that make any sense? I a really tired today, so it may not...

I know what you mean in PONR... he is soooo good at that song... so sexy!
I also really love that rock and roll edge to his voice!

[PhantomLover05]

I totally agree about the "rock and roll" edge! PONR is definitely my fav. song and scene of the movie! I can't really remember it in the play, but I'm sure it's good! The facial expressions makes perfect sense! I never thought about it that way!

[angelofmusic]

I was having a really bad day, yesterday and I just went to my room and listened to "Music of the Night" and it made me feel so much better.

[PhantomLover05]

I definitely agree! The whole soundtrack is so soothing and comforting! I play it every night when I go to bed! I'm sorry you were having a bad day! :( Hope today was better!

[phantoms_nemo]

I think hes kinda mysterious and I like his voice in most parts of the movie. In comparison to Micheal Crawford, they both sound different than each other. I didnt like Micheal's singing the most.

[Phantompherak12]

Say, do you love Erick? Well if you do tell us either why you love him or you can say how obbessed you are.

I am way obbsesed because my locker has pics. of the phantom in it everywhere.

[Beneath the Opera]

I don't think I can... male!

[Lady Christine]

I am obbsesed because my 14 birthday is gonna be Phantom themed also i order to make a special shirt of the Phantom.

[Vivian]

I have Phantom pictures all over my binder (Michael Crawford, Gerard Bulter, and Lon Chaney), I watch the movie every chance I get, my 18 birthday cake was modeled after the "18 Phantastic Years" poster of the play, and I proposed a Senior trip to New York just so I could go see the play live!


-V-

[Reza Khan]

Erm, I listen to the soundtracks repeatedly. I read the books repeatedly. I order Phantom bracelets to show my obsession (I'm wearing two of them right now...).

SO yeah, not the most obsessive, but I think I'm doing alright. :D

[Black Ribbon]

Um, well when I go to sleep, there's a picture of Erik above me (always pleasent to wake up to ;) ) I also have started a phantom phan club at school! Only about three member's but, oh well. And.........I dressed up as Carlotta this Halloween (no one knew who I was). And I have a signed picture from Michael Crawford! (My mom got it for me) So, I'm obsessed! Kind of.....

[angelofmusic9731]

I think that it is a shame that there are basically no romantics like the Phantom anymore. the phantom's devotion to Christine is creepy to some, but I find it incredible. His love for her was a true soulful love, where Rouls wsa more of a oh hey lets just get married kind of love.

[PhantomofFrance]

Everyone loves the phantom ( well not everyone ) but he's the Main Character He is supposed to be the best.

[Ceridwen]

Originally posted by angelofmusic9731
I think that it is a shame that there are basically no romantics like the Phantom anymore. the phantom's devotion to Christine is creepy to some, but I find it incredible. His love for her was a true soulful love, where Rouls wsa more of a oh hey lets just get married kind of love.

I know what you mean. Erik's love for Christine was so passionate and intense. This is very rare. I don't think I have ever read/seen a story which portraited passion and desire in such a beautiful way without any visual sexual contents. And maybe that's also the power of it, your own imagination. As the Phantom puts it:
'Open up your mind,
let your fantasies unwind,
in this darkness which
you know you cannot fight -
the darkness of
the music of the night . . .'

[Christine's Shadow]

OMG....don't get me started!!!!!!I'm clynicly obsessed. I have been diagnoused with Phantomitis. that's how obsessed I am. and I'm getting one of the hair pins from the Really Useful Group's site and a bunch of other phantom stuff. ^_^

[NEH]

Humdiddly.... i dressed as Erik/Phantom for a "fantasy" fundraising day at school - complete with cape, half-sided white mask, a bunch of black-ribboned roses and my admittedly poor attempt at a Punjab lasso! (i did not, however, attack anyone! i have some dignity)
Gerik and Antrik (anthony warlow's Erik) are on my bedroom walls - so they lull me into sweet dreams (hehe!) I ordered both Leroux's Phantom and the 2004 Film Companion in from America and had myself quite a celebration when they arrived!!!!
Oh, and i have an entire scrapbook dedicated to the film/musical/novels in which i place my own rantings and pieces of phan poetry etc. and display my obscene E/C shipping!
Is that ok?

[FallenRose123]

Well I am soo obessed. My binder and everything is Phantomized. When my friends come over we normally end up yelling at eachother wheather we want to watch Harry Potter or POTO and I always win. My desktop background is Phantom, by Screensave, Phantom and the only I listen to on my iPod is Phantom. Yeah, I am really obbessed.

[FallenRose123]

I just love Gerry's voice. Like angelofmusic said if I am having a bad day I listen to Music of the Night and I feel so much better. When I see him in Music of the Night I scream since he is so HOT!

[Ceridwen]

Ah I'm obsessed as well. My computer is phantomised. I listen to the music every day, even when taking a walk. The cd is always in my car. A week ago I ordered the movie companion and I knew on which day it should be arriving, I waited for it all day...(worth the waiting I must add).

My room is covered with drawings of mine, most of them are scenes from Phantom although there are as well of Gerald and Emmy. I want to have the movie poster though...I can't find it anywhere. does anyone know where I can get it by chance?

Oh and I got two copies of the dvd, one is the Dutch double-disc version, the other the German triple disc-version with the mask :D I also really really really want the beautiful cape Christine wore in the scene where she's visiting her father's grave :tongue: I was seriously considering letting it be made...but I don't have that much money :rolleyes:

[Delilah]

According to some, yes, I am a bit obsessed, but I'm not nearly as obsessed as some others I could name. *coughs* My last name starts with an "F" and I started accidentally spelling it with "Ph," my binders and folders are covered with Erik quotes & pics, I freaked out and wanted to scream at my orchestra teacher when he claimed I wasn't paying attention when we were working on a Phantom medley, I freaked out (yes, again) and mouthed every word when we actually started watching it (the 2004 film) in orchestra, I compare every guy I meet to Erik (and girl to Christine or Meg), my background on my computer has Erik and Christine on it, I have a Phantom cami (which is in the wash right now), I carry my "Andrew Lloyd Webber's The Phantom of the Opera" special 2-Disc Widescreen edition DVD with me at school, I used to carry my soundtrack with me just about everywhere (but now I've got it on my mp3 player... hehe *evil grin*), and when I get to college my dorm-mate and I are going to have a POTO-Queen-Wicked themed dormroom... and that's about it so far.
So, all in all, not that obessed. ;) :mask:

[Wishing]

I have a picture right across from my bed, I have a phantom charm on my charm bracelet, pictures of Erik all over my file cabinet, and when I'm bored in class I always seem to doodle stick-phantom pictures. I also sing the songs all the time.

And, everytime we're in the auditorium for something, I always look up into the flies and hope that Erik is there. Yeah, I'm weird. haha

[The_Persian]

Almost a whole wall in my room is devoted to Phantom of the Opera- There are posters from West End Musical Theatre, from a couple of years ago... There are still from the movie... There are a whole bunch of pictures of Micheal Crawford and Sarah Brightman... There are sketches, some that I did (that are horrible!) and some printed off the web (see avatar), and there are about 50 sigs that KT did. My locker is also covered in KT's sigs, and also some stills from the movie.

I sing songs from the musical all the time... and I almost constantly listen to the OLC recording.

I used to cry, when I was yonger, whenever I sang, because I wanted so badly for the Angel of Music to come to me...

Also, just after I finished reading Phantom by Susan Kay, I turned I guy who asked me out down because i was so caught up with Erik... Haha, oops...

[Reza Khan]

Originally posted by The_Persian
Also, just after I finished reading Phantom by Susan Kay, I turned I guy who asked me out down because i was so caught up with Erik... Haha, oops...
Ah, that's a slight mistake on your part, methinks. But woot phor Kay's Phantom! I'm reading it again right now, and it's still as wonderphul as the phirst time I read it. :)

[Christine Daaé]

Discuss the mad genius in the version that started it all here.

[Christine Daaé]

Discuss the beautiful madness of Kay's version here.

[Christine Daaé]

Discuss the half-masked Phantom of Webber's musical here.

[Christine Daaé]

Discuss Gerard Butler's portrayal of the Phantom here.

[IamErik771]

Gaston Leroux's Erik is most probably my favorite version of the character. Monsieur Leroux obviously did an astounding amount of research on psychological conditions caused by parental neglect, among other things.

Even Erik's corpse-like appearance and smell are apparently based on a real physical condition. Porphyria Cutanea Tarda (PCT) is a condition where one is extremely sensitive to ultraviolet light; about 100 times worse than a third-degree sunburn. Therefore, Erik would have been born as a normal-looking baby, but sunlight coming in through a window would have caused all exposed flesh to burn. Within hours, he would have been reduced to a hideously disfigured creature with yellow, papery skin, possibly lacking a nose as well - too much more exposure would have been fatal. The unimaginable pain caused by these burns would account for his psychological state, and the festering wounds, if not properly cleaned, would have caused him to smell of death. All nerves in the exposed areas would have been severed, leaving him unable to feel pain. (Therefore, he would have felt nothing when Christine's fingernails tore through his flesh.) Liver damage, another side effect of PCT, would result in his being abnormally thin. In the 1800s, this disease was very rare, but not unheard of. Those who had this condition typically wore long, dark clothing, wide-brimmed hats, gloves, and full-face masks to prevent any more sun exposure, and rarely ventured outdoors in the daylight. Other less severe forms of Porphyria have been found to be the basis behind legends of vampires and other creatures who never come out in the daylight.

[The Trapdoor Lover]

That's really interesting. I never knew what caused Erik's physical condition before. It explains a lot, too.

[The Khanum]

Wow...that's amazing, James! PCT completely fits with Leroux!Erik, especially in concerns with his mental state. I've heard a few people say that Erik was a bit 'melodramatic' about his deformity (their words, not mine), but if the pain of such a disease is so intolerable, then it makes sense for him to be psychologically scarred.

Your information is incredible...where'd you find it?

[The Trapdoor Lover]

I think he's awesome as the Phantom. He has one awesome voice, he's hot, and he's very convincing as Erik. Or, at least he convinced me. I mean, he didn't just sing the words and get it over with. At least i didn't think so.

[IamErik771]

ALW's ErikÂ… It's very difficult to generalize with him, since each performer has a different way of portraying the character. While I thought his character was toned down a lot for the musical, I can understand why it had to be done - few stage-goers would have identified with a totally insane, violent living corpse. I thought the half-mask design was very unique and clever, though IMO, they should have kept the glass eye that was used in the original concept sketches. I like how even with the mask on, his skin still looks rather waxy and disfiguredÂ… I also thought it was rather interesting that in the Leroux and Kay novels, Erik's hatred and violent tendencies are acted out towards all of humanity, whereas in ALW's show, he directs his violence primarily towards Raoul, and doesn't really care who else is killed in the process. Another thing I loved is that his "magic tricks" are never fully explained; we don't know exactly how he makes Carlotta croak, or how his disappearing acts or pyrotechnics are done.

[The Khanum]

I'm very much a phan of Kay!Erik...he's by far my favorite version. (I'm not too loyal to the whole canon thing, I'm afraid.)

I regret to say that I'm not chalk full of information like James is on Leroux's Erik, but I'll post my limited knowledge. Susan Kay based her Erik primarily on the Persian's accounts of his history, and on the interpretation of Andrew Lloyd Webber (and, more specifically, Michael Crawford). She also included references to Lon Chaney, Claude Rains, and the '67 cartoon.

Kay, like most of us, actually saw the Webber performance before reading Leroux's novel. She planned on investigating the original story in hopes of discovering the history of Erik, but instead, she developed her own theories and such through his work as a result of more questions derived from unanswered plotlines.

Of course, like all good creators, she used her artistic liscense as a writer to fill in the gaps. Her research took her to Persia and Italy, spanning over two years in travels (which was, in actuality, quite short, considering the twelve years she spent working on Legacy).

All things considered, I believe Kay was most successful in her ability to portray emotions. Kudos, Miss Kay.

[The Trapdoor Lover]

I think I like that they made it only a half mask, even though in the book it was a full mask. It sort of makes you wonder what could be so bad about the other half of his face if one section is exposed.

[Reza Khan]

Yes, yes, yes! I agree muchly with you, dear KT. Kay's version is the phullest, most real version of Erik.

I've loved this version the most since I phirst read it because it's not just the Opera- it's Erik's real liphe, so you can really understand why he is the way he is. In Leroux's version, so many questions are lepht unanswered. Kay answers those questions. You really pheel the character through her writing.

Kay's style is dephinately why I love her Erik best- she makes him seem so much more real, and more amazing. Yes, she makes it clear that he's a cold-hearted murderer, but she also shares all oph his sophter, more passionate side.

MUCH love phor Kay and her Erik!

[IamErik771]

I didn't mind Gerard's voice too much. He wasn't the best singer they could have chosen, but he did have at least some ability, especially when one considers how little training he actually had. He definitely sang with passion, and you can tell that he gave it everything he had.

However, I do have some major issues with what was done to the character for this film. By making him so much younger and taking away his history of having built the opera house, it makes him seem like much less of a genius compared to the stage version. In addition, the deformity (if we can call it that) left much to be desired. Honestly, I've seen smallpox survivors and burn victims who looked worse than that. The disfigurement is the reason behind Erik's actions, and if it's really not that bad, the story ends up not making a whole lot of sense. I also felt that showing how he did his tricks (i.e. switching Carlotta's bottle, unhooking the chandelier) pretty much destroyed any element of mystery that his character should have had. His Red Death costume was stolen from a painting of Napoleon Bonaparte, and wasn't the least bit shocking or scary. But I think the thing that weakened his character the most was losing the swordfight. It's more realistic, sure, but it makes his character seem almost pathetic, rather than the unstoppable force that the stage Erik seems like until the Final Lair scene.

[IamErik771]

I first heard about it from a PFN member known as the Khanum of Persia, who claims to be a medical doctor. After that, I checked out a few books to confirm it, and talked with my dermatologist as well.

Apparently, Leroux had originally considered using leprosy (aka Hansen's Disease) for Erik's condition, but abandoned that idea when he learned that leprosy only occurs in tropical areas. He needed a disease that caused enough pain to result in madness, without physically handicapping his character too much, as Erik still needed to be quite agile.

[Why So Silent]

Wow, coolio James! ^_^ My brain went ::click:: and I was like "Hey. Makes sense." <<<that would be my blonde brain comprehending something.

And as for leprosy, I did not know that it was only in tropical areas...but this isn't a thread for medical maladies. ^_^

[Christine Daaé]

I agree, James. Butler's portrayal, while good, is PATHETIC compared to others I've seen. That was just a sunburn he had on his face, for God's sake.

Gerard Butler was way too hot, even with the "deformity". If my mother can fall in love with his looks, then something is wrong.

I want my corpse!Erik, darn it!

~ Zelda

[Phantompherak12]

Don't get me started. I love Gerard Butler. HOTNESS! How does do it. I agree with FallenRose123, good voice. He seems to really care about Christine. If he didn't care, then why did he have a model of her in a wedding dress? HUH? I call that kindness. He just doesn't want someone to take away his angel of music.

How am I obessed? Well, locker phantom pics everywhere. Binder, phantom pics everywhere. I am too obessed. But being with Gerard Butler is perfectly okay.

[The Secret Diva]

I guess because I have NEVER seen the Phantom of the Opera--as a musical, anyway--I fell VERY in love with Gerry Butler as the Phantom.

Yeah, he doesn't have a classically trained voice. But, I ask you, did he not emote the passion and pathos that the part of the Phantom most certainly deserves?

As for his relative youth and stud-muffin-ness, well heck, make me suffer! I would agree that his face could have certainly used a bit more deformity, if only to make it a bit harder to fall so devotedly in love with him.

Since I have very little knowledge of the back story for the Phantom, I will plead ignorance and simply adore G Butler for the passionate, vital, and damned manly Phantom he was in the 2004 movie.

[metafizzypop]

Ha ha! Nicely put!

I'll admit that, initially, I was a little disappointed because I didn't get the horror story I was expecting. But the music is great so I'm willing to .... er ... suffer, as you say.

6\-)

[Standing_Love]

I love Gerard Butler. He's so hot, cute, and talented. As I type this I am listening to Music of the Night. And watching POTO on my laptop, and ohh, he's hot.

For not that much training, he did a really good job. I thought anyway. Though my favorite was when he sang Music of the Night. I think he looks the most hot in that song. Then Phantom of the Opera.

[AAW0487]

I absolutly loved Gerard Butler. I have seen the play three times and the Phantom's I saw were wonderful, but he was the first to immediately capture my attention. For never singing before in his career he was magnificent! I'm always listening to the soundtrack back and forth from college, and his voice practically puts you into a trace. I couldn't imagine someone doing a better job than him. And I must say he was defentally a very very attractive Phantom, and even the side of his face that was supposed to be deformed wasn't that bad at all. :phanc1:

[Learn2BLonely]

I absolutely LOVE Gerard Butler as the Phantom Erik. He captivated my attention from the start. I have seen the other phantoms in the opera, and even though Butler's voice didn't blow me away like the others...I still love him and his voice. I felt that Gerard himself had an allure of mystery that added more to his character and I felt that his voice was very sexy(heck..he's sexy!) and rock-n-roll. I understnad that his voice wasn't one that was trained, but I didn't care. I FELT the emotions of the phantom through his voice and demeanor. I think it helped that Butler was very attractive, since I was drawn to the passion that he oozed through all the aspects of the film.

As for his age and the fact that he was properly "deformed" : Butler was 34 when he started filming, Rossum was 16. There was a signifacnt age difference there and I felt the chemistry that they had together. They looked incredible together. Just look at them during The Point of No Return, my favorite part...WOW! They should've been a real-life couple. I didn't mind that the phantom's face was supposed to be more deformed, and while it wasn't as deformed as in the opera versions...it still scared the crap out of my cousin, she jumped back in her seat!

On the subject of how he lost the mystery by showing how he did his tricks, I disagree. Sure, they showed how he did them, but I don't care because Butler still continued having an air of mystery to me and besides, it's a Hollywood version and many who weren't fans of the opera(my family included) would've been upset by not knowing the answers.

[Silver Diva]

I guess because I'd only been exposed to the Original Cast recordings of POTO before viewing the movie...well, lets just say I was not properly PREPARED for Gerry Butler.

I was right proper blown away!

Now, it's obvious that Mr. Butler's singing doesn't exactly hold up against....oh, that Crawford Whoever Person. But I DEFY anyone to say that the double threat of his emotional AND physical delivery of every single song wasn't enough to make MCPerson look like some geeky 14 year old in a school play. I don't think POTO would have amounted to squat WITHOUT what Butler (oh, yeah, and Rossen and Wilson) put INTO it.

I watch this movie at least once a week (is that sick?) just for the endorphine rush I get from watching Mr. Butler CRY. Yeah, I know, that IS sick... And the Red Death getup--his soulful pining for that little goose Christine....the tears of RAGE in his eyes when he yanks that chain from her scrawny neck...


Hmmmmm....let me just think on this a minute---okay, pour the bucket of water over me, please. ::::::::sizzle..snap....sizzle::::

Yeah, The Butler Did It--for me, anyway.

I swish my tail....

[Phantom7]

Gerard is one heck of a great actor. He's so good looking as the Phantom, he's also very good in his other movies. He has a great sining voice

[Starr]

I am about half way through reading it and I LOVE it!!!!!!!!

I'm in middle of the section with Nadir, the Persian.

I am very impressed with the background (what I've read so far) that Kay gave Erik. It really fills in alot of gaps and answers alot of questions.

[AAW0487]

I am almost at the end of the book. I am right about to finish the last chapter which is in Raoul's point of view. I am dying to know how the end turns out! I love Kay's beautiful portrayl of Erik and his entire life. She uses some of the most wonderful quotes I have ever seen! I will have to write back when I am finished with the rest of the book. ::runs to finish the end::

[THeFaCeiNTHeMaSK]

Well, all I've seen is the movie version, and Gerard BLEW ME AWAY. His voice is soooo... I don't know a word to describe it!!! I loved his voice (and good looks, who doesn't?!?) and I could have "The Phantom" play all day in my room (although it drives my mom up the wall, she didn't really care for the movie, although she did like Gerard!!! Again, who doesn't!!!). I can't think of anyone who could play a better Phantom!!!:phanc2:

[AngelofMusic1087]

I dont even know where to begin....Gerry was phenominal as the Phantom...He absolutely BLEW ME AWAY. I have not seen "Phantom" on stage, but I fell in love with "Phantom" b/c of the Original Soundtrack, and to be quite honest I much prefer Gerry to Michael Crawford. Yeah Sure Gerry didnt have the training like Michael Crawford did, but it is NOT fair to compare Gerry to Crawford. I love Gerry`s voice, its hypnotic, passionate, and powerful. Gerry put everything he was into every single song he sang....and to show that level of commitment to a role, is truly a beautiful thing.
Gerry is extremely handsome, sensual & sexy, memerising & enchanting, mysterious & tragic, and he was brilliant. He undertood the Phantoms pain, lonliness, and heartbreak on the most indescribably deep level.
He broke my heart....shattered it really, and left me breathless. I also love that his voice is very much Rock oriented, and was really exactly what ALW wanted.

Gerry is an unbelievabley great Actor. Enough Said.

Spectacular.

[doristelford]

I agree that Gerald was a good phantom; but he is too young, and his face should have been worse. 0n the other hand I enjoyed his singing for the emotion he put into it. I guess no actor who pays the phantom is perfect in every respect.

[Minoru Inoue]

Gerard Butler was all around a bad choice. O_O Uh-oh! *gets attacked by Butler fangirls* WAAAAAH~!!! HELP!!

*ahem* Seriously though, if you're going to have Phantom of the OPERA, you should have someone who SINGS OPERA. And, you guys? I've had voice lessons forever and a half (ten years running), and singing with emotion is about as easy as eating with a fork. Okay? It's simple as pie. Besides, it was all ONE EMOTION that he showed anyway. Not like that's anything spectacular.

While the man was skinny, and had the fun way of flinging off his cape, he was NOT Erik. He just... wasn't. Erik isn't handsome. Erik isn't young. Erik was 50 when he stalked the young and pretty Christine. Erik is passionate. Erik is obsessive. Erik is crazy -- that's why we love him. That's what makes Erik so special. And Gerard couldn't express that if his life was in danger!

I'm sorry. Gerry's a fine looking guy, and I'm sure he's a great actor. He just wasn't meant for this role. I've read the books, and I've obsessed about the play; I've sung the songs more time, I think, than the Broadway actors. I am passionate about this show, and Gerry just did not meet my criteria... at all.

[Christine Daaé]

Finally, someone who agrees with me!

I agree with all Rayna said. I don't know what else to say about that. How else can I add to that?

~ Zelda

[Minoru Inoue]

Taking everything Phantom I've seen -- the original 1920's movie, the recent movie (bleh), the play (over and over again), and my father's performances of him, I have come to this:

Erik was a passionate man. He was obsessive, controlling, sadistic, crazy, and passionate. He loved his music, and he loved Christine. He wanted her, and since he loved the real Christine, he let her go. He could not keep her as one of the rats of his dungeon.

Erik was a genius. From what I've heard from my even more obsessive friends, he travelled around the world (with his mask), and learned everything from medicine, to, well, music. He built the interior of the opera house, and knew every secret passageway -- and every trap. My drama teacher visited that opera house (and went beyond the roped-off sections); she went down to the lake under the opera house. She didn't see Erik's cottage, but she saw the labrynth down there, and the lake!

Although Erik's disfigurement caused him to look like a living skeleton (or in the other cases, just a really ugly guy), he has more fangirls than Raoul. What we love about him is his intense passion -- he wants Christine; body and soul. Meanwhile, Christine wants to have a slow, sweet romance, and Erik just wants to throw her on his bed and have his way with her, to put it... bluntly. XP I think a lot of girls are attracted to men who can love a woman so intensely, even if one of the reasons is that he wants to get in her pants.

(I'm a Raoul fangirl, but try denying what I said above, girls!)

It's the soul of an artist -- an eccentric artist -- that makes Erik so attractive to so many people. Wow, this topic is supposed to be about general Erik-ness, but I managed to turn my topic into the love of Erik. That was fun...

[Minoru Inoue]

*cringes, prepared for a smack*

*gets a compliment instead* *blink blink* Oh... *blinks more* Wow... A compliment. :D Didn't expect that!

Oh, but I have one more thing to add: as far as crying on stage versus on screen goes, it's sooooo easy to do it on screen, because everyone can see your tears and facial expression. Try doing it on stage where no one can even see your face. You have to literally shake your body, wracking it with sobs, and do all kinds of other crazy things to make it look like you're crying. That is something soooo difficult to do, and I respect every Phantom on stage (including understudies), because they successfully do that.

[Christine Daaé]

This is how Erik was meant to be. Not "romantic", not "misunderstood", but a stark raving lunatic who stalked and preyed upon and killed people.

I know a lot of people will despise me after this, but it has to be said. Don't get me wrong -- I love Erik. I really do. But love is about looking past the romance and accepting the fact that there are flaws.

Kay portrayed him somewhat wrongly, I think. She's brilliant, but she didn't stick to the canon too well by romanticizing his character.

And keep in mind that amoral people are not sexy. Deformities -- no matter how much someone can look past them to see the inner beauty of a person -- are not sexy. Erik was never, EVER supposed to be a sex god. But people like to paint him that way. I weep for the "OMG ERIK IS SO HAWT!!!!!!!11!!" phangirls who may dream of becoming psychologists, unless they can grow up and see what a man like Erik is really like.

This is NOT to say that Erik doesn't have reason to be stark raving mad. In a society like that, with a deformity like that, I would be, too. But romanticizing his character and calling him "misunderstood" is missing the point of his character entirely.

Off the soapbox now . . .

~ Zelda

[IamErik771]

I completely agree with you, Zelda - Erik is not a character who can be whitewashed. The fact that he kills innocent people (yes, even in the ALW show) can't be justified by the way he was treated throughout his life. There's no getting around the fact that he deceived and kidnapped Christine. I'm not saying he didn't deserve love - everyone does - but to portray Erik as little more than a schmexy guy who lives underground is just ridiculously off-base.

Also keep in mind that even though Erik had a tragic life, in the end, he chose to become violent and vengeful. Joseph Merrick (a.k.a. the Elephant Man) had to endure many of the same hardships - he, too, was deformed, and was harassed by neighborhood children, eventually getting a job in which he was exhibited in a cage to an uncaring public. But unlike our Erik, Joseph never gave up hope. He didn't seek revenge on humanity for the way he had been treated. Then again, Joseph died at age 27, whereas Erik lived about twice as long. Age probably had a lot to do with his embitterment and resentful nature.

[THeFaCeiNTHeMaSK]

I know this is going to be a short spamalicious post but...

Most people who didn't care for Mr. Butler are saying that the one reason he shouldn't have been Erik is because he's too uber good-looking.

I leave you with one thought... Do you think he can help being uber smexy? :D

[NamelessAngel]

I must say that I wasn't very impressed with Leroux's version of Erik. But then I read Kay's book and I feel in total love with him, it's just so detailed and you feel like you actually know him. Also now we know all the things that happened to him before he came to the opera populaire & met Christine and got mixed up in all of that. It gives us more insight on his character.

[AAW0487]

I loved understanding the background of his character through Kay's eyes. She was very detailed in everything! I felt so sorry for him as he grew up, but you can understand his character better and why he became the Phantom. The ending was very surprising and yet happy! I loved that her childs name was Charles, because that's what Erik's mother had wanted to name him before the deformity. I love Kay's use of writing! Her book is defentally one of my favorites!:D

[MissDay7000]

I enjoyed Kay's version of the story pretty much. I think she has a very strong grasp on what it is Erik was like and thought during the whole story. Like you all have said you don't really get a good sense of that in Leroux's novel-in there he just sounds like a nut. But yeah, Kay's book really impressed me, except for one tiny detail; the E/C relationship. I guess what I mean is that I would have like to get a better grasp of what it is they felt for each other than such a dramatic, sexual attraction. I know that Erik is a dark character, but I think he would have found a better way to express his love for Christine than constantly getting irritated at her. I was also very set off my the ending with Raoul's point of view. In my opinion that completely ruined everything. I mean, I was all excited about what was going to happen next, and even though I already knew, I still wanted to read about it in Erik or Christine's point of view rather than surmise what happened and just jump to Raoul. That really disappointed me. But other than that I like the book overall.

[AAW0487]

I suppose I can understand that yes even though he had a tormented life he shouldn't have killed anyone. But I think I would have been a little screwed up too if my parents had treated me the way Erik's parents had treated him. It's true that some people handle things differently. Apparently Joseph M. was able to control his temper and not seek revenge on people, but for some they have problems controling their temper and can't stop themselves from seeking revenge. I can see both points of view. So i'm stuck in the middle of this one.

Leroux's version isn't my favorite, because we don't get to learn a lot about Erik and why he has grown up to be who he is. I think there should have been a little more of Erik's past. But still Leroux started it all! So I give him kudos for creating the wonderful Erik!!!!:mask:

[AAW0487]

I love the Phantom's character! Gerry had been my favorite Phantom so far! I need to see more Phantom's as well though. I have only seen two others and I still need to see or hear Michael and Hugh! But I couldn't have enjoyed the movie without Gerry playing Erik! Though he hasn't sang all his life I do love his voice. I'm sure it's not the best Phantom ever, but I do love it any how. His voice is very soothing and he had great chemistry with Emmy Rossum too! Especially in PONR! And I love Kay's and a few other author's version's of Erik as well!

[AAW0487]

I love ALW's version of the Phantom!!!!! I have always wondered how they went from the full mask to the half mask, but I like it better that way. Gerry looked great as the half masked Phantom. *sigh* LoL! Any how the Phantom is more interesting to understand and you are able to fall in love with his voice and in love with the chemistry between him and Christine.

[lisalawless]

Originally posted by The Trapdoor Lover
I think I like that they made it only a half mask, even though in the book it was a full mask. It sort of makes you wonder what could be so bad about the other half of his face if one section is exposed.

I love the half mask also soooooo sexy :mask:

[IamErik771]

Well, the makeup artists could have easily made him uglier if they had wanted to. I consider many of the stage actors who have played Erik to be quite handsome in real life (Hugh Panaro or John Owen-Jones, anyone? :D), but when they get into their full makeup and costume... You get the idea. :mask: In fact, at least one actor (Anthony Warlow, from the Australian production) thought the stage makeup wasn't bad enough, and asked the makeup artists to make it worse by disfiguring his ear as well. You gotta love that kind of dedication.

I even consider Lon Chaney Sr. (from the 1925 movie) to have been rather good-looking, and yet, he had a gift for being able to transform himself into the most hideous creatures. His Phantom was so far the closest anyone (except maybe Ken Hill) has gotten to the "living corpse" that Leroux had described, and his other movie monsters are no less astounding. Just wait until you see his Quasimodo! *gushes*

Overall, I think the biggest problem with Gerard's makeup is that they spent too much time and effort on the eye thing, and not enough on the rest of it. I mean, four to nine hours just for that? :rolleyes: Even the stage Phantoms only take about two to three hours, and they still manage to look quite hideous when that mask comes off.

[o_O;]

He's sexy and I love his voice, so to me, couldn't have been better. I'm quite happy they didn't make him look hideous, because I believe we're intended to feel sorry for him at the ending, for the film to have its effect. And - I realize this sounds shallow - I have a harder time feeling sorry for some insane 50-year old guy who looks absolutely terrible. And I need someone to drool over.

[o_O;]

The half mask is better... It makes the actor able to show more emotion. And it does add a touch of mystery.

[getzell]

I like him yeah after all who dosen't but he did kill innocent people which for me is pretty freaky. I mean what if actually went through twith killing Roul you think Christene will still love him then. Then theres the INSANE thing. But I guess if you canget through that then yeah hes alright.

[northangel27]

I just finished reading all these wonderful posts on Erik and just felt I had to contribute a little of my own Erik musings.

Erik was a complicated individual. That is, I think, what makes him so fascinating and magnetic a character. He is disfigured, he is inarguably insane, and his mood swings, accompanied as they are by extreme and dangerous violence, make him terrifying to say the least.

But on the other side, within his breast breathed a soul so great it could have "ruled the world", to quote Kay. He was a genius, highly talented, and despite all that was mentioned before, I believe that he truly did have a great capacity to love.

Unfortunately his view and understanding of love was tragically skewed. I have often felt that this was linked to his parent's treatment of him, as well as treatment he recieved after he ran away from home at such a young age. The young mind is so raw and open to suggestion, and mistreatment and abuse at that stage makes a lasting impression, often becoming the basis of the adult personality.

To say that Erik was Romantic, or Sexy, or any of the other simple lables placed on him is to misunderstand the man completely, and to place him upon a pedestal that just isn't realistic. That is the viewpoint that Christine had of him before she discovered the he wasn't really an "Angel of Music", but rather, just a man; a man with all the flaws and complexities of any other human being, and a man who, due to the circumstances of his tragic life, had more complexity than most.

Erik was beautiful and terrifying, brilliant and mad, tender and unimaginably violent, compassionate and brutal. His whole personality was a paradox. To frame him as anything simpler than that is to disrespect the character and the man.

He was not an easy person to love. Indeed, it would have taken a soul as great or greater than his to have found the strength and courage to have loved him in the way he needed, and Christine was a dear girl, but just to young and naive to ever have been able to do such a thing. Her soul was so young and new, and his so old and burdened. It was a sad circumstance that a man such as he should have lost his heart for the first and only time to a girl who was simply incapable of loving him in the way that he needed.

But then this is the sorrow and tragedy that makes the story so compelling.

[phantoms_angelofmusic]

I personally like Erik (The Phantom) alot better than raoul. I have many reasons. One, I think Erik could care for Christine more passionately. And (a common one) I like erik better than Raoul because raouls hair is girly!

*note that this is my opinion and you masay agree or disagree*

[MystMoonstruck]

The Phantom certainly is a fascinating character, or we wouldn't see so many versions in novels, films and, of course, the stage. He IS complex, exceedingly so, and it's likely that Christine could deal with his mixture of madness, genius, possessiveness, obsession, fixation, and emotional baggage. Consider a far-more-deformed OG, and some romanticism is taken away from the situation.

Erik is a murderer, and he seemed to delight in killing. He is still a fascinating man, but perhaps he's more like Hannibal Lecter than someone to daydream about--charming but completely dangerous, literate and lethal.

I do think that dark and brooding tends to appeal to us. Read "Jane Eyre" and "Wuthering Heights" for starters.

[Masqued Mystery]

I love Erik, and think he's so much the better choice for Christine than Raoul. For one, I see Raoul as something of an interloper, seeing as Christine and Erik were beginning to fall for each other (well, she beginning to fall for him), and he suddenly arrives and screws everything up for them.

Also, I see Raoul as the sort of person who, yes, you'd live a quiet life in the countryside with him, grow old together quietly, blah. That's so boring, so safe. Erik is dangerous, passionate, unpredictable. I don't know about Christine, but I'd much prefer danger and excitement in my life to safety and boredom. Plus, I think that the good side of Erik's face is more handsome than Raoul's whole face, in my opinion. ;) No offense to Patrick Wilson meant. :p

A bunch of you have mentioned that Erik is insane and murderous. The insane part I don't mind so much... I mean, he only went really crazy when people were messing up Christine's career or threatening exposing him. That's why Joseph Buquet died. As for murderous, same thing. He only kills people who threaten him or Christine, so if people just left them alone, everyone would be fine.

Raoul doesn't seem to me like the kind of guy who would have a lot of music in his home. Especially after what happened with Christine and Erik. He'd probably keep it out of his home, might be paranoid about it. Erik would sing and play piano to her every day, her life would be filled with music. A far better alternative, I think.

Hm, I've turned this into a "Why Christine should have chosen Erik" thing... ah well. Those are my thoughts, anyway. :D

[Angel's Muse]

I totally agree with Samantha. Erik is complicated. He has a hypnotic and sometimes magnetic personality which he can use to his advantage. He is a genius, yes, but a very misguided one.

He's a bit of a sane madman, if you know what I mean. It's almost as if...he's choosing to be insane, but can't quite get there. Sorry if you don't understand what I mean.

Erik had next to no morals. He believed himself free of them, because other people treated him as though he was also free of all human rights. He would kill without a qualm of conscience, for a period of time, at least, he enjoyed seeing other human creatures in pain and devised ingenious methods of torture. I personally see this as a sort of twisted revenge. Whether Erik himself saw it as this, I do not know.

Erik's thoughts on love before he met Christine were terribly distorted. Even after he met Christine, his sole objective seemed to be to consume and possess, rather than actually cherish and love. But who can blame him? He had never known human love in his life. He had parents (or a mother, whichever version you like best) who were/was terrified of him, disgusted by him, and who hated him. There was no one to teach him what that extremely remote and elusive emotion called 'love' was.

[masquerading rose]

Erik's thoughts on love before he met Christine were terribly distorted. Even after he met Christine, his sole objective seemed to be to consume and possess, rather than actually cherish and love. But who can blame him? He had never known human love in his life. He had parents (or a mother, whichever version you like best) who were/was terrified of him, disgusted by him, and who hated him. There was no one to teach him what that extremely remote and elusive emotion called 'love' was.

Erik's thoughts on love were very distorted even after Christine. Since he was never shown love and compassion, he has never, or rarely given it.

[MystMoonstruck]

It truly concerns me that so many young girls idealize a man who acts the way Erik does in most versions. Compare him to an Internet predator, passing himself off as someone else, just as Erik tells this impressionable child then young girl that he is the Angel of Music her father sent to her. That's perverted right from the start. Then, he becomes more obsessed with her; he has forbidden her to go out, and she's fearful when Raoul is persistent about the two of them going somewhere. Next, he kidnaps her, takes her into his domain, terrifies her--though likely intriguing her, too, and keeps her captive for some time as he continues teaching her.

Because the Phantom has been made increasingly attractive, you idealize him. But, Erik is a murderer, a kidnapper, a mix of blackmailer/terrorist who demands money in order to cease causing problems, and--without a doubt--unbalanced (a kinder way to say "madman"). I've seen most of the film versions and have been reading the novels. Leroux definitely did not intend him to be the object of phangirl phantasies! Susan Kay... I'm still trying to make up my mind and might reread her to see if I can make a decision.

Erik is an interesting literary character, but I find it difficult to believe that, if a girl was put through what Christine was, she would think he was "schmexy" or any other dreamy description. Even if you're dealing ONLY with the musical film, it's difficult to understand the praise. We can sympathize without adoring and dreaming.

I hope no one encounters, let alone becomes involved with, a male like Erik. Don't idealize "bad boys", guys who are dark and dangerous. They seem to be a weakness for a lot of girls, leading to a lot of misery. We live next door to a girl whose husband fits the charming bad boy image; the police had to be called when he choked her into unconsciousness on the front line. (This is a very nice, quiet neighborhood, so that was especially shocking.) She was the proverbial barefoot and pregnant 19-year-old; he does the driving, and she's basically captive at the house. The police are called far too frequently. He's volatile, dynamic, and attractive, and she's in tears more than anyone I've met. This is a weak example. Imagine if she was dragged into an underground domain, separated from everyone, subject to the whims of a deranged man, this one much older than she is. That doesn't sound like an arrangement I'd ever want to experience.

I like Erik the character, but I wouldn't want to encounter someone like him in the real world--not unless I was well-protected.

[masquerading rose]

My thoughts exactly, Cyn, but you put them into coherent words!

I was reading Susan Kay's "Phantom" today, and as Nadir was describing Erik, I realized Erik sounds bipolar. It clearly stated that Erik could be in a good temper one minute, and in a foul one the next, gentle, then angry or angsty.

[Christine]

Although it is true that Erik is a man of both passion and diligence, his mental problem would have only worsened by Christine encouraging it. You do not cure an obsession by enticing it.

[Christine]

masquerading rose, I fully agree that Erik sounds and appears to be bipolar. If you read the book by Gaston Lennox (I've not read it fully from the beginning, only the ending), even the dialog is sheer insane.
Also, Erik originally was at least twenty years older than her, he was practically a pedophile. She was 16 (in the movie, anyway.).

I think Christine saved Erik in the ending of the '04 film.

1 He left the opera house...
2 ...without his mask
3 the rose/ring @ her grave proved he'd overcome his obsession and was down to pure affection for someone he knew he could never be with.

That itself should show that he wasn't left high and dry, but that by her decision of showing she'd sacrifice her life (to be with the phantom against her wishes: when she kissed him) for Raoul's was a true act of love. And I think Erik learned that.

[Rose of Phantom]

Yes, Christine, I agree with you. In the ending of the film, I believe that Christine's kiss and kindness meant everything to him, ultimately changing him. Even the simple fact that he let Christine go with Raoul in the end shows how much he had changed- for the better. I think that and those you mentioned were all very good signs to show that he had changed who he was, realizing that he couldn't keep living the way he had been.

[Victoria]

I got a lot of love for Erik.

I realize in the book, he's a lot different than in the movies or musical, but there's just certain quirk about him...I don't know.

I agree with your thoughts full heartedly as well Chrisitne :)

[Eriss Haughten]

Erik is a creature, made the way he is by denial and betrayl from others. If anyone ever showed him true kindness, he would in turn be kind to them. Roaul did not deserve Christine, as you said, he is a weak wimp, nothing like the all powerful Erik.

[Phantom22]

Ugh! I get upset when people say/think that the Phantom (at least '04 movie) is mad, insane, whatever. Although I do sort agree with Moonstruck in a sense. Besides that, the Phantom saw Christine in her lonliness when she was young and comforted her, since he could relate in a way. And you have to remember, there is about a ten year difference or so. So by the time we catch up in the story he has known her for nearly ten years, though she has not exactly seen him yet. During those years he became her protector in a sense and as she got older and he has been watching her, he falls in love with her. I would never call his love obsession, only desperation. He hates the world and everyone in it, just when he thought he could never love anyone, he proved himself wrong. The Phantom probably would of gotten Christine if it were not for Raoul showing up. Now remember, if you time everything right Raoul and Christine only knew eachother when she was about 6 or 7 and he would of been about ten. In the book by Gaston Leroux they were more the childhood sweethearts you expected. And she only fell for him because he was rich and handsome and he could "guard and guide" her. Yeah, I am anti-Raoul.

Anyways, so his whole bipolar thing, you imagine yourself living alone your whole life. The Phantom kind of made his life a game, "owning" the opera house. He was extremely sensitive about his deformity as we are revealed to that, the fact that he would knock the person he loved to the floor because she simply took the mask off. So when the managers would ignore his demands he was upset since they were mocking him even though they did not believe he existed, yet he still took it personally. His actions may have not been ethical, and at times questionable but when it comes down to it he really truly loved Christine. He only did some of things he did (keeping her in the opera house and away from Raoul) out of fear of losing her. Everything is summed up in the end when he says his final words to her "Christine, I love you" and suddenly his actions are explained for. The anger, rage, and hatred he released just minutes before were again, out of desperation. Yes, true, if were something nowadays or even to be in that situation it would be creepy, but come on, this phantom is very attractive. lol

The rose and ring ending is the best ending to this tragic love story as the audience realizes that after all those years he loved her. More than that, it has been two years after her death, suddenly it holds more meaning. From that he is saying that he could finally give her up. The ring was the only thing with the most sentimental value that he had that reminded him of her, though how could he ever forget her. In a way it was a piece of him, for him to give it up is probably the most important part of the story.

So yeah, maybe I did not explain it well enough, but I know what I mean. I guess it just upsets me when anyone, especially fans, call his love obsession. I understand if you seen it once, maybe even twice, but after that you should know by now the true sincere love he had for her.

[angelofthenight]

Well I've seen the movie at least sixty times(I've kind of lost count) if not more, read the book five times, and seen it on broadway three times. That said I consider Erik more of a lonely man looking to be loved as opposed to an obsessive lunatic who doesn't know how to handle his emotions and after phantom22's view of him I really don't know what else to say except that I agree with phantom22 wholeheartedly.

[Bricabrac]

It truly concerns me that so many young girls idealize a man who acts the way Erik does in most versions. Compare him to an Internet predator, passing himself off as someone else, just as Erik tells this impressionable child then young girl that he is the Angel of Music her father sent to her. That's perverted right from the start. Then, he becomes more obsessed with her; he has forbidden her to go out, and she's fearful when Raoul is persistent about the two of them going somewhere. Next, he kidnaps her, takes her into his domain, terrifies her--though likely intriguing her, too, and keeps her captive for some time as he continues teaching her.
Erik is an interesting literary character, but I find it difficult to believe that, if a girl was put through what Christine was, she would think he was "schmexy" or any other dreamy description. Even if you're dealing ONLY with the musical film, it's difficult to understand the praise. We can sympathize without adoring and dreaming. ...

..I hope no one encounters, let alone becomes involved with, a male like Erik. Don't idealize "bad boys", guys who are dark and dangerous. They seem to be a weakness for a lot of girls, leading to a lot of misery. We live next door to a girl whose husband fits the charming bad boy image; the police had to be called when he choked her into unconsciousness on the front line.
I like Erik the character, but I wouldn't want to encounter someone like him in the real world--not unless I was well-protected.


You are dead right. The women's shelters are full of girls and women (and their children) who were attracted by a "bad boy" or didn't realize how controlling he was until it was too late.

All of this sort of thing is fine in a romance like POTO, and I think most of us can separate a romantic story from reality. I, for instance, love the story but wouldn't go near a real man who wanted to control me completely and who used psychological manipulatiion and physical beatings to keep me in line.

In the story, we see that the Phantom, after being shown kindness, compassion, and maybe love in the last scene (last scene of the musical) has changed and now knows that love is generous, not grasping and cruel. He lets the woman he loves go although it leaves him heart broken and bereft.

It is a heartbreaking, beautiful ending to a wonderful story, but I am very sceptical that the "bad boy" some women are attracted to in real life would ever have such a change of heart.

From the many things I've read and heard about, such a guy is more likely to kill his woman rather than let anyone else have her.

[ChristineJ16]

I love Erik! Such a deep, dark, romantic, yet sad character. Even tho he's dangerous, at the same time I feel sorry for him. I was hooked on this character since I first discovered the musical back in like 1990.

[masquerading rose]

I don't love Erik. He's a murderer, a stalker, dangerous.... the list goes on and on. I love how well his character was developed, and that's about it... I would never like to marry him. I wouyld have left with Raoul in a heartbeat. I don't see what people see in him. Though I am an open-minded person and can get used to differences quickly, I would never get used to Erik's deformity I don't think. I think the condition doesn't exsist. The only I can think of that has to do with decaying flesh would be the bubonic plague. But eirk wouln't of lived to be sixty something if he had it his entire life. I think it was Gaston Leroux being Gaston Leroux, exagerating as usual, and making something up to scare us. Erik is a complex character who will always be what we make him out to be in out minds. I made him out to be what he is in the book, scary, murderous, old, stalker-ish, munipulative... the list goes on and on and on.

[Hidden Away]

I find Erik pretty attractive heart wise...oh shot, well okay he's wonderful! My friends feel that they need to put me through a mental course. They pulled crazy pictures of him off the net and tried to get my mind become frightened of him. But what is there to be frightened of? Hopefully they need to learn that looks aren't everything. I could dare to say expression, but you all would completely be pretrified, so I chose not too. At least when I told my mother and father they were scare. . .

Deep down there's a heart of gold within him. But letting gold be hidding for years will tarnsh it! Through Christine he could have shone for the first time. But no, she had to flippin leave and the entire plan is ruined! Well, she doesn't know what she could have with Erik other than the life she chose with Raoul. I hope Christine know that money isn't going to by you love. . .I hope people don't have to learn that the hard way. It hurts. I've seen my friend go through it. She was depressed for months! I've never had much a liking in money.

Only for the needs of life, but other than that I find it a waste of time. I feel that I completely understand Erik's life. Shunned, mistreated, lost, wandering what is there to do after all is lost. But hopefully God shall redeem a new bright chance for the both of us and all those that understand our lives.

[DarkGondolier]

Um, I wouldn't exactly describe Erik as having a heart of gold. He may be a little misunderstood and have some good qualities, but overall he's a pretty creepy guy. Did you read the above posts comparing him to an internet predator? I think it's a good comparison. He passes himself off as someone else to an impressionable young girl much younger than him, then kidnaps her and keeps her trapped for a while (I forget the specific amount of time). There are things about Erik to be scared of. He is cruel at times, manipulative, inexperienced in dealing with people, a murderer, a stalker, and generally a scary guy. He may seem great, but when you really think about it, Erik is not someone you would want to meet in a dark alley, or in the middle of the street, for that matter. Before you run around proclaiming your love for him, ask yourself if you could really deal with someone who was that fiercely protective and generally psychologically messed up. Would you really be able to live with someone who looked like a living corpse?

Money may not be everything, but when you compare living with someone who has money, a nice house, good looks, social skills, a good reputation, and the ability to not murder you when he gets mad to living underground with Erik, it's easy to see why Christine chose Raoul. She would be much safer with him, physically and mentally. Living underground in the cellars 24/7 must have some sort of impact on your mental well-being. Not to mention the stares someone who looked like Erik would get walking down the street with you. It would be a much harder life than living with Raoul.

Of course, there's also a point about the type of love the two couples have with each other. Erik and Christine have a more wild and perhaps more passionate artistic love, while Raoul and Christine have a sweet romance-movie young couple's love. Personally I agree with both E/C and R/C equally, but Raoul was by far the safer choice.

All this is not to say that I don't like Erik. I find him a fascinating character and have often wondered what it would be like if Christine had chosen him or if I'd met someone like him in real life. But realistically, getting romantically involved with an Eriky person would almost definitely lead you down a dark path.

[Hidden Away]

nice points, but I've always been considering them, every single second seems to blurt a question to my mind about it. But as much as I fight it back to sound sensible, it turns that the sensible side (considering my life. . .)is towards him. My life as of now, continues to make me run and befrighten to live safely. So how are you to live safely if you never have in you life (as of the same with him) I know I may be frank to some people's point of view, but live in someone else's shoes. . .persay mine. . .being frighten that you'll be beaten or hurt physically and mentally for life. Worrying about what's to happen before you. . .what would happen to you if you mess up again? What would the consiquense be? This is considering everyday life for me. So the least thing I have to reach out to him a life when I live alone. What would I do?

Now in Erik's shoes? Insanity is partly the first, but I've gotten there once and I've retreated now. Being perfectly sane I wander what my life were to be if not for the time for going back. Erm, back to his shoes, Lost, mistreated, abused. . .it reminds me of me and may other people in this world. I know that most of you all are blessed to be happy every second of your life. Perhaps I could find that level of safely, that one night and day I could be calm and comforted, alone in my house without worrying about would he find me? Some people out there do relate to him. I know may other young adults, children, and anyone could be abused like he was. I know my pains could never add up to his but I know that I know how some of the pain and tears feel. So that's my story. . .nothing more to say. . .

Erika:tear::mask:

PS:
Noticed I said deep down there's a heart of gold. . .

[sweet_intoxication]

Deep down yes there is - Especially in the last scene, he finally experiences love from Christine...And he even gave them (Christine & Raoul) his boat! And Christine then sings AIAOY whilst The Phantom can hear...harsh!

[xXphantomaddictedXx]

I truly love Erik - but I kind of feel sorry for him, as well. Like sweet_intoxication said, he does finally experience love from his dream girl in the last scene, but she breaks his heart by going off with another man. Each time Erik says, "Pity comes too late, turn around and face your fate," tears come to my eyes and I realize just how much I love him. If I were Christine, I would not have broken poor Erik's heart like she did. I would have stayed with him - but that's just me.

[phantom's_rose]

I couldn't explain how much I loev him. He is enchanting, for one, he is dark/mysterious, two, and he has an amazing vocal talent, 3. And you all know I could get to 100,000,000,000,000 but I wouldn't have time do do that.

I have always wished I was Christine. I think she is SO lucky to know that some one like that loves her to death (litteraly!). Like in PONR I get chills up my spine because it seems like it's being sung to ME! And music of the night is such a brilliant song!

Erik seems like he has a split personality. Whenever he is singing Music of the Night, he seems so sweet and loving. However in Il Muto, he is a killer. But I love him anyway; no matter how much you people critisize me. And you can yell at me for spelling that wrong too!! Heh...

My love for him is undieing. Ha, sorry to be so poetic...:D!

The end for now.

~Emmy~

[tiannangel]

Agrees compeltely. The phantom's voice is suposed to be the most enchanting, seductive voice you've every heard in your entire life...

I wish I was Christine XDD lucky girl...
I mean, who doesn't?

[xXphantomaddictedXx]

The phantom's voice is suposed to be the most enchanting, seductive voice you've every heard in your entire life...

Agreed. Each time I hear Music of the Night or Point of No Return, I just about lose my mind with love for Erik. You all have no idea what those two songs can do to me (besides making me lose my mind). ;)

[tiannangel]

I can well imagine what they do to everyone who loves Erik <33

I swear, everytime I hear Music of the Night, my knees go weak, and that's the point when I start hating Christine T.T

[xXphantomaddictedXx]

I think a lot of phans hate Christine (myself included) because they all want to be Erik's one and only. Erik is like a god, almost...he has so many people who worship him. That being said, I know that some girls (and I'm not saying any of you are like this) would kill if it meant they could somehow be close to Erik.

[The Countess]

I for one DON'T hate Christine or wish that I was her.

Poor thing was minipulated by Erik into thinking that he was her Angel of Music. That's lying and last time I checked, lying is not a good thing. It wasn't her fault that she didn't love Erik. I do believe that she loved him in a way that could have turned to something more but it didn't so that's that.

A god you say? Heh, I bet if every phan read the book, he'd have either a lot less "worshipers" or even more bashers. I realize that you're talking about the 04 Erik, but in reality, Leroux's Erik would have been more likely to truley exsist in my opinion.

[xXphantomaddictedXx]

A god you say? Heh, I bet if every phan read the book, he'd have either a lot less "worshipers" or even more bashers. I realize that you're talking about the 04 Erik, but in reality, Leroux's Erik would have been more likely to truley exsist in my opinion.

True, and I have read Leroux's book, but that's another story. Anyway, I'm not just talking about the 04 Erik; I'm also talking about the Erik in the live versions of POTO. ;)

[tiannangel]

Yes, I think alot of girls and maybe even guys (depends on your taste:P) would kill to have Erik by their side forever.
God knows I'm one of them XDDD

Yes, I have read the novel, and I must admit I prefer the stage/movie Erik way more than the book one, but the point is, we are talking about teh Movie Erik :D:D:D

so you can't blame us for going a bit gaga over him :D

[The Countess]

I can't, but I can blame the director for casting a handsome man with a poor makeup job in the role of an insane, deformed man...getting off topic. Please don't let my shrewd comments decieve you, I do like Erik. He's actually my favorite character and I do ship E/C but one gets so used to the book or stage Erik. Once upon a time, I only liked the 04 movie and thought that Erik was so sexy and now I cringe at some of those thoughts. Getting back on topic now.

My only nit pick with 04 Erik is that he has no real character. Some may argue that he's romantic or whatever but isn't that only coming across because he sings a pretty song or leaves roses? It may not even be the song he sings but the way Gerry sang them. Stage Eriks sing the same song and they usually give across a different Erik than 04 does. Does this make sense? I'm ranting...

[xXphantomaddictedXx]

Some may argue that he's romantic or whatever but isn't that only coming across because he sings a pretty song or leaves roses? It may not even be the song he sings but the way Gerry sang them. Stage Eriks sing the same song and they usually give across a different Erik than 04 does. Does this make sense? I'm ranting...

This may be true for you, but it isn't for me. I happen to prefer Michael Crawford over Gerard Butler. As to the other men who play Erik, it is true that they sing the same songs as Gerard Butler did in the movie. It is also true (for me, at least) that almost anyone else who plays Erik can sing way better than Gerard Butler - especially Michael Crawford. :mask:

[tiannangel]

Yes, I agree too.
Even though I'm those type of phan girl's who just adores Gerik, I still think that Michael Crawford's singing and maybe his acting is better than Gerry's.
It could also do with the fact that Gerry has never had any real vocal training or singing lessons, whereas Michael has probably has, otherwise, he wouldn't have got the part for the stage show :P
I don't think all the guys who has played Erik over the past years have had better voices than Gerry, but hey, that's just my opinion.

[xXphantomaddictedXx]

Well, that is because you are a Gerry fangirl - but that is not the point I'm trying to make. My point is, no one is ever going to be able to top Michael Crawford. He set a high standard for everyone else when he played Erik in the 80's, and no one has topped it yet. :mask:

[The Countess]

Oh, people are so misunderstanding of me. What I was attempting to say is that I think that the stage Eriks only give off more of a darker feel than Gerik does but they're still definitly romantic. ESPECIALLY Michael *dies*

As for Michael being the best though, I can't honestly support that because A. I haven't seen Michael live *tear* so I can't justly grade his acting well and B. I haven't see all of the other Eriks live either. I've only see John Cudia and he was phenomenal.

[Hidden Away]

thank you for saying something about Michael that I agree! with! OMG! So, exactly why *dies*? is it cuz of his sense death? Just asking. I wanna revise my previous POV of Erik, b/c I'm too lazy to go back and find it! hhe! sorry! anyways, he very dark, and I admire that. He most comes to mind at night as I'd sleep in my bed...and the angel of music sings songs in my head. (I named my iPod Ange la Music heheh!), but yes, he doesn' certainly come to mind. The darkness of his life is very relivant the the life style of an outcast back them from the way I see it. A bit more as a known outcast, but yet against shunned. I believe that in the end of Phantom Raoul comes to some what (in a very off center way) appreciate the Phantom. He (Erik) was the one that did test Chiristine and Roaul's love for each other. what they were willing to risk (which was everything) and the distances they would and did go to stay together--there's no other way to define test of love. But you must admit, Erik's love for Chiristine is and will always be an addiction/obsession--hence the waz figure of her in his art room, the amount of drawings that I've seen at a glance during the movie, and also the way he'd convey his love for her. Hey the man would kill for her! Anything else to add Brandy? (that's my brain) oh yes, Erik rules!!!! hehe!;)

[The Countess]

No, no darling. Good kind of 'die'. Phan girl 'die'. He makes me die inside because he's so amazing 'die', heh. Sorry for the mix up. I actually don't think that MC gives a very good vibe of death come to think of it. Gary Mauer on the other hand...*dies again*

[xXphantomaddictedXx]

Oh, people are so misunderstanding of me. What I was attempting to say is that I think that the stage Eriks only give off more of a darker feel than Gerik does but they're still definitly romantic. ESPECIALLY Michael *dies*

As for Michael being the best though, I can't honestly support that because A. I haven't seen Michael live *tear* so I can't justly grade his acting well and B. I haven't see all of the other Eriks live either. I've only see John Cudia and he was phenomenal.

I haven't seen Michael live, either - I've just heard him on the original soundtrack - but I flat-out worship him. It feels like my life is incomplete if I'm not worshiping Michael. As to seeing it live, I saw it in Las Vegas, and Erik was played by someone named Brent Barrett. He was amazing, but I don't worship him the way I do with Michael. :mask:

[The Countess]

When you stop and think about it, Michael is 66 so is that weird? Answer: Hell no. Anyway, let's get back on topic. There's no argument with me though that Lon Chaney's Erik is the best. Classic, inspiring, dramatic.

[xXphantomaddictedXx]

I have never seen the version with Lon Chaney, and I'll be honest. I'm not sure I want to try any more Phantom movies, after watching the 2004 one. I honestly think I just want to stick to the live versions and the novels by Susan Kay and Gaston Leroux. That's just me, though. :mask:

[IamErik771]

Well, if you liked Gaston Leroux's novel, you really should give the Lon Chaney film a try. Except for the ending, it remains the film version that's most faithful to the book, and Chaney makes quite an awesomely creepy Erik. I worship him and Michael pretty equally in the role. :mask:

I also think the Phantom in the stage version has a different energy and feeling from Gerry's portrayal, and that's besides what I thought of their singing voices. Part of it, I thought, was that Joel Schumacher (the film's director) tried to make Erik younger, sexier, more 'human,' and ultimately less of a 'mad genius.' Erik in the 2004 film, imo, was less violent, more earthy, and in the end, less interesting because of it.

Paradoxically, the more violent stage Eriks are the ones I find more appealing. Actors like Peter Karrie, John Owen-Jones, and Kevin Gray, who go really over-the-top with the violent aspects of the character, are the ones I feel I can connect more with. But at the same time, I thought Michael Crawford hit a really great balance between Erik's violent and tender sides. Plus, he created most of the movements and choreography that every stage Erik after him has imitated to some degree. So yes, I felt that he really understood the character and how to make him compelling to an audience.

[The Countess]

NO! Oh Sarah don't do that! There's a lot of really good Phantom movies out there, don't them all up for one bum one!

I agree, JOJ is SO powerful as is Kevin Gray. I'm not too found of Peter Karrie though. Not sure why...

[xXphantomaddictedXx]

NO! Oh Sarah don't do that! There's a lot of really good Phantom movies out there, don't them all up for one bum one!

I agree, JOJ is SO powerful as is Kevin Gray. I'm not too found of Peter Karrie though. Not sure why...

Okay, okay. I'll consider giving some of the other movies a chance! I don't know where I could find them, though, and that is where my problem lies. What versions are John Owen-Jones, Peter Karrie, and Kevin Gray in? All I really need is the year the movies came out. :D

[Ange de Musique]

*gasp* :eek: Don't give up Sarah!! I agree with IamErik771 and Viktoria, the Lon Chaney version is really quite good. You kinda have to get over the silent film aspect of it, but I quickly adjusted. :)

I have seen the Lon Chaney version, the Claude Rains version, and the 2004 version, all of which I love. :D I personally am not that picky about movies, I'm open to variety. The Lon Chaney version is very faithful to Leroux's book. I have also heard that the Charles Dance TV mini-series is excellent, though I haven't seen it myself yet. ;)

Laura

[IamErik771]

What versions are John Owen-Jones, Peter Karrie, and Kevin Gray in? All I really need is the year the movies came out. :D

All of them played the Phantom in the ALW stage musical... There are no officially released videos of them in the role, but you can probably find some good clips of them on YouTube. :D I got to see Kevin at the "Three Phantoms" concert in 2006 (where he and fellow stage Phantoms Craig Schulman and Cris Groenendaal did an awesome trio version of "Music of the Night"), and as Scar in The Lion King last fall... he's a brilliant performer all around.

I agree, JOJ is SO powerful as is Kevin Gray. I'm not too found of Peter Karrie though. Not sure why...

Heh heh... yeah, I admit I didn't like Peter's voice when I first heard him. But after I listened to him for a while, he started to grow on me. (The same seems to be true of a lot of his fans, so I guess he takes some getting used to.) I was the same way with Colm Wilkinson, but that was more because he sounded rather different when he played the role live than he did on the Canadian Cast recording. And I took a little while to appreciate Earl Carpenter, too... I guess if you get really used to hearing the role sung a certain way, it can be jarring to hear someone do it really differently.

[Madame le Courayer]

This IS the Phantom! Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZDcSrODALQ

[xXphantomaddictedXx]

All of them played the Phantom in the ALW stage musical... There are no officially released videos of them in the role, but you can probably find some good clips of them on YouTube. :D I got to see Kevin at the "Three Phantoms" concert in 2006 (where he and fellow stage Phantoms Craig Schulman and Cris Groenendaal did an awesome trio version of "Music of the Night"), and as Scar in The Lion King last fall... he's a brilliant performer all around.

Okay, I will look on YouTube when I get a chance. :D Thank you.

[angelgirl]

Erik. First off, let me start by saying that even though he's my fave character and I really like him, I agree with the fact that I would not want to live with someone like that in real life. It would scare me too much.

I can identify with him because I have been in a situation where I was mentally abused before and it made me try
something I'm not proud of. So I understand how he feels there.

All in all, I love all the aspects of the story. Thank you, Gaston Leroux for creating the wonderfulness
that is POTO!:tp1:
A.G.

[Eriksmasquerade]

The Phantom has to be my favorite character in the play. Sure he can be mean, angry, but there is also a tenderness to him and a desire to love and be loveed ( which makes people human). He's such a complex character but at the same time easy to identify with.

[xXphantomaddictedXx]

The Phantom has to be my favorite character in the play. Sure he can be mean, angry, but there is also a tenderness to him and a desire to love and be loveed ( which makes people human). He's such a complex character but at the same time easy to identify with.

This is all very true, but there is so much more to Erik than that. As you said, he is a complex character, and because of that, no one is ever going to know all of Erik's secrets. Furthermore, Madame Giry and Christine are the only two people whom Erik could seem to trust with some of them. By letting his guard down and opening himself up to them, he lost some of his mystique (if you will) and revealed that he was a normal person in some ways. Which, if you think about it, is pretty big when you consider all of the things Erik did to people such as Carlotta, Raoul, and the managers of the Opera House. Just a few thoughts from my perspective.

[Desdemona]

I'm truly sorry if I offend anyone, but I dislike it when phans say that Raoul was nothing but a pompous fop, used to getting his way, who didn't really care about Christine at all. While the Phantom, of course, was this dashing, suave romantic figure. Yes, he was a genius, and I do love Erik dearly, but he was a psychopathic killer with a romantic touch (especially in the Robert Englund version. RAWR.). I don't think the definition of fop is risking your life to save the girl that you love.

I've been trying to decipher why I love the Phantom, even though he's a homicidal wacko. And I think it's because, when he lets down his barriers in the book and in the movie and stage production, I see a faint glimmer of redemption in him. A slight possibility that, he could change, and all for love.

Plus, all the men who have portrayed the Phantom have done a remarkable job. NO snarky remarks on Gerik, if you please. :-)

Sure, he might not have been able to sing very well, but his acting was perfectly all right. Most of the time...

[The Countess]

No apologies needed, a good majority of the site is very open-minded. I agree with all your thoughts on Raoul and I'm not even sure where the nickname "fop" came from. It's not like it's a commonly used word...

True, most Phantom actors have done a decent enough job in the role except Juilian Sands in my opinion (Gerry isn't one of my favorites but I'll keep quiet as requested ;) )

The only thing I have to say about though, is that he is a good actor, but when you're in a musical and you're playing a musical genius, I think it should have been required to get a better singer. That's all I have to say about that.

[Hidden Away]

....I'm not even sure where the nickname "fop" came from. It's not like it's a commonly used word...
If your asking where "fop" came from in the 1870s. Well do you know the three performers in the beginning of Il Muto the woman is called Confidante and the two men at her side are "fops". Silly, I know.

I personally wouldn't call Raoul a fop, and I would consider him to not care for Christine. But this is the thread for the Phantom, sooo.

It is quite sad that I fancy the Phantom while he is hideous, a murderer, etc, but beyond that he is a genius and a musical man. I suppose it was ALW's Phantom and then (Don't kill me) Gerry's take on the Phantom that made several fall in the trap. Either that or we find a way to pity the man beyond the fact that we know that his morals are wrong in a few ways.

Trying to find out how we find interest in the man? I'm not sure, but I always found GErik mostly related to "women's dream man" and MCErik as the musically music man with a slight issues in his rope work. LonErik is just the best, and the closest to the book.

[xXphantomaddictedXx]

Trying to find out how we find interest in the man? I'm not sure, but I always found GErik mostly related to "women's dream man" and MCErik as the musically music man with a slight issues in his rope work. LonErik is just the best, and the closest to the book.

For me, it is just the opposite. MC!Erik is my dream man (or would be, if I wasn't already spoken for), and Lon!Erik is my second favorite. Gerry!Erik is just too handsome, in my opinion, and I'm never going to like the '04 movie much.

[The Countess]

I personally wouldn't call Raoul a fop, and I would consider him to not care for Christine. But this is the thread for the Phantom, sooo.


How so? I think risking your life to unfathomable legnths would qualify as caring for someone. Raoul loved Christine, Christine loved Raoul. It's not really something that can be debated.

As for the Phantom, I think that we as a people take such interest in him because of his tragic stories and misfortune. I think that in one way or another, we can relate to Erik.

And yes, Lonny is the best :Peace:

[masquerading rose]

Wow. Just Wow. Are we really having a debate that is undebateable about Raoul in the PHANTOM thread? Sheesh.

And, I personally, like always agree with my loverly Viky. God, Viktoria!You're fifteen and possibly one of the most mature and reasonable (and right, if i do say so mtself) people on this board. Kudos.

And as an addendum to her comment, we also have sympathy for Erik more than we do Raoul (unfortunately) because he is teh main character, and though the story is told in third person, it is seen through Erik's eyes, its from an unreliable narrator who sided with erik the whole time, and though Leroux was a very talented man and I hold him in great respects, he was feeding us his own biased thoughts. So we related with Erik quite a bit for this reason, plus our own little reasons for adoring him.

Though personally, as much as I adore the original novel, I have to say that Kerik is the best one, or rather, in my eyes.

[Mrs Nadir Khan]

Love LonErik. Love Lerik. Love Kerik. Still think Raoul loves Christine. But, c'mon, Erik is a friggin' masterpiece of a character. He's like, a pyschologist's dream. We could name a million and one social disorders after him. Which is probably why I love him. Reading him and watching him is a pleasure because he is so twisted and yet, somehow, very very human. I should stop talking before I stop making sense. I just wanted to reiterate my phangirl status.

[The Countess]

And, I personally, like always agree with my loverly Viky. God, Viktoria!You're fifteen and possibly one of the most mature and reasonable (and right, if i do say so mtself) people on this board. Kudos.

Oh, well merci. I just sound smarter over the internet, or at least about Phantom things. Trust me. :spin2:

Honest, I think any Phantom is good as long as he is grotesquely deformed, crazy, and keeps his love for Christine (sorry, not a phan of E/M, E/R, ect.). It's just Lon was able to portray him in a gruesome and yet beautiful way.

[Hidden Away]

back to the Phantom.

He's just really this complex guy. I mean really. His needs are complicated. I do pity his because he was in the belief that Christine loved him the way he did, but then found out and was broken hearted later.

I'm not going to blame his past, but it really was what happened and what cause his irrational actions. I just feel bad for him because we must admit, being alone for so long would cause depression, sadness, and a need and urging passion for love.
I mean what would you do?

[The Countess]

I never thought that he actaully believed that Christine loved him more that he knew that she never would love him like he did her and that's what tore him up so much.

I also don't think that it was also just his lonliness that caused his drastic actions. I think that he himself was just a twisted up individual from birth but definitly his solitude and childhood were major contributers to his mental health. It is very sad that he never really had a chance in the world.

[Hidden Away]

I think that childhood has to do so much with mental health. So in what I have seen and what I believe from my own encounters yes, his sanity was infected by his childhood. Which childhood we speak of? Just almost all of them. In Kay's mostly. She set the boundaries of Erik's childhood for me. Her story of his childhood is just what I imagined! and you know, it cuts deeply. He even drove his mother insane.

[The Countess]

I think that maybe, although it's not clearly mentioned, that some of his insanity was hereditary. His mother was driven completly insane by him, but she wasn't necessarly alright in the head to begin with. She was spoiled and pompus and maybe having any child, deformed or not, cracked her reality. And not much was mentioned about Erik's father's health. We can only assume I suppose...

[Hidden Away]

But she was driven insaneby him. You see insanity is not really by blood. It's really all about what you do to avoid such problems, she didn't have to go crazy about having a deformed child--or in general having a child. She was rather immature even when she was going to marry off to the Dr in Kay's version.

Insanity in the 1800s was something that made people fear those that suffered such a fate--like leprosy in the early centuries. The insane were see as ridden by the devil's thoughts. It was likely that people would suffer this since religion was the 'thing' of the time.

Erik's father's health could be assume rather healthy actually, but that's my own assumption. ;)

[The Countess]

You see insanity is not really by blood.

That's actually not true. A lot of mental health diseases can be transfered from parent to child. My thinking was that maybe somewhere in Erik's family tree, there was some kind of metal illness that contributed to his own trama. It was just theory and I guess that there is no facts or ways to tell for sure.

[Hidden Away]

If your talking about developing mentality issues, then ehh I heard wrong. Smart-alic friend, yea sure.

I don't really think so myself, but you know I'm not sure if any other phans dig this deep. I really just think that his childhood and life caused his life to be that way. But you know I can't honestly be that clear about my POV, it's just so broad.

[The Countess]

I get what you mean. I'm not saying that his childhood wasn't a big contributer because it most definitly was, but I've just been tampering with the idea lately.

[Hidden Away]

With this situation there are many possibility, besides we can't find the answer to our ideas because all of these facts of these characters are just pulled from different authors and making the dream, or ideal character.

It couldn't just be that he was insane. In one version of PotO, it was all representation. They took the idea of the characters and Erik was a Dr./Scientist? that had acid spill on his face and then deformity.

[EriklovesLea]

That was the 1943 version, my introduction to Phantom back in the dark ages. If you have not seen it, the music alone is worth the rental fee. Erique Claudin is a violinist with the opera who also composes on the side. when he writes a piano concerto, he takes it to the Salon Pleyel to try and get it published. while he is waiting he hears Franz Liszt playing his piece and thinks Pleyel has stolen it. When he attacks and kills him, his secretary throws a pan of acid in his face. Whet your curiosity???:!:
Now back to the real thread, about Erik's madness. I do not believe he was mad. who could help but have problems, the way he was treated. But madness is only one persons description of another person's actions.
I think Erik is a fascinating person, and would not have hesitated to follow him to the lair in the movie( I have not seen the play). I would love to have him write a MOTN for me.:love:
I don't find deformity that bad. I have been blessed by the Lord to be able to see into a person's heart, and to me, Erik had a beautiful one.I believe it would only take a special woman's love to make him a loving husband and father.:tp7:
Anne

[The Countess]

I can understand that his deformity would be a little more acceptable if it was caused by an accident and he would maybe even be able to marry and have children and such, but unfortunatly in most versions he was born with his face.

I found the most interesting drawling of Leroux's Erik. Look if you dare:

http://phantomstheater.com/Art/big/The_Monster_Inside.jpg

Now, could you live with that? Honest, I'm not shallow or anything, but his face would be down-right horrifying.

[Hidden Away]

I think that because 43 version was caused by acid, I don't find much pity towards him. Yes he can still have a life and all that, but it doesn't really grab my attention. I do find Erik--in general--with a potentially good heart, but it is all of his choice. His choice to let his heart shine the way he wants to be precieved.

[The Countess]

I agree with you completly, PJ. Erik was human like the rest of us, but he decided to hide and not show people the beauty that lay deep deep deep deep deep deep within him. I guess in the end it was for the better since society wasn't as excepting but he still chose to hate and kill than try to make something of his life. I guess that's why he fianlly began to teaching Christine, to make his pitiful exsistance have meaning.

I don't really buy the "he didn't know any better" card so much anymore because although Erik was a crazed madman, he was still of great intelligance and he wasn't oblivious to the ways of the world. True, he was horribly abused and damaged as a child, but that probably didn't completly shatter his knowing of right and wrong. I think that is marred his grip on reality to a degree, but it didn't ruin his moral compass (if he even had one). I think what happened to Erik was tragic and heartbreaking, but we can't blame everything on his childhood. It's getting a bit cliche...

[Hidden Away]

Okay so now I just got this crazy idea. So--especially for you Viktoria--look at ONLY the lyrics of No One Would Listen. Not look at who sang it or why, but look at what it means. What if what Erik has been talking about all along, such as learning about compassion and him teaching Christine...what if that's like a legacy. A way of thinking, but not a religion but just a thought process. Haha! I think that his concept was somewhat like a way to break through the paradigm of society back then. Think about it! He wanted to break their thoughts about caring to much about their image. Showing what's on the inside is what he thought of life.

No One Would Listen

No one would listen
No one but her
Heard as the outcast hears.

Shamed into solitude
Shunned by the multitude
I learned to listen
In my dark, my heart heard music.

I longed to teach the world
Rise up and reach the world
No one would listen
I alone could hear the music

Then at last, a voice in the gloom
Seemed to cry "I hear you;
I hear your fears,
Your torment and your tears."

She saw my loneliness
Shared in my emptiness
No one would listen
No one but her
Heard as the outcast hears

No one would listen
No one but her
Heard as the outcast hears...

Look in the bold is the main idea for what I'm seeing.

Isn't that something crazy that I thought about. Ha!

Call me crazy, but either it's TOO late at night, or I'm on to something in my childhood mind.

But if I'm just being crazy let me say one thing that remains sane, there was once a wise--not to mention quite attractive (ask me later)--man told me that when we die we only have documents and very few things to describe us when we leave this world. Leaving a message by writing, music or any thing creative to catch attention, obtain it, and change or open someone's mind is what destiny is. Erik's legacy of acceptance could be something that I just realized, and even if not it's something that has changed us in any shape or form.

Seriously, think about it. It maybe crazy, but at least, consider it.


Back as Patricia: Whoa, who was that crazy chica?

[The Countess]

Haha, no no I get what you mean. It was hard not to think of any other version...but the movie lyrcis *twitch*purist*twitch*.

But I see what you mean in a way. Erik's legacy could be heard through the music he made. I can see why this song would be his philosophey in some ways.

[Hidden Away]

Ha as long as ALW wrote it I don't mind who sang it. Shoot my brother would have killed the song more than Gerry and he's been having a few lessons..well his age...anywho. I can't really think of anything else that really matches up to his ideal legacy...idea...

[The Countess]

I think that perhaps Erik may have wanted to be remembered as the Phantom in the end. After everything that happened, perhaps he just wanted to die nameless and a legend. Of course, that wouldn't explain the "Erik is Dead" statement in the Eroque. Maybe he just wanted to be remembered as Erik to Christine and that lot and the Phantom of the Opera to the rest of the world. In a way, it worked. If you go up to a person and ask if they know the monster Erik, they won't have a clue what you're talking about. Go up to a person and ask them about the Phantom of the Opera, there's an instant response.

[Hidden Away]

For sure, but I don't really see Legacy as the specific name that you remembered as. But more of what you had lived for. What did he want to leave behind, what footprint, what ripple affect?

[The Countess]

Definitly music then. That was his life before Christine. I say that he wanted his name to be known more because of the infamous chandelier crash. His destruction and terror of the opera house could also be his legacy.

I think in many ways, Erik didn't want to be known for anything. He lived much of his life in utter solitude. Not to mention he hated the human race. For much of his life, Erik didn't want to live at all. He lived for music in the end, but other than that there really isn't much.

[Hidden Away]

Yes but he wanted only Christine to know the real him. In the Kay version of Phantom he had sooo much potential it was a deep shame to see him insane his life away.

[The Countess]

I see what you mean, Erik wanted to be remembered as a human being and not an animal or monster that the world saw him as. It's a shame that he never obtained that in truth.

[Hidden Away]

Aren't I just a person of lovely question :P haha Really. *groan*

yes, he never was truly see as real person more or less man. and that I can see was very degrading to his soul. It showed :( Poor unhappy, Erik. I personally thinking that it had to take Gaston forever to think of something that pitiful to say.... *dibs to Leroux* It would have taken me forever! and a year!

[The Countess]

I wonder how long it did take him to write the original novel...I should know this...

Anywho, yes, Leroux was definitly a very creative man to create such an intricate, complex, and pitiful character. Erik is so interesting and unique, it definitly makes you wonder how real the book is.

[Hidden Away]

I think that it's soooo amusing to see how each variation of Phantom has their own recognizable characteristics about each Phantom. Their not all the same, but they have to have certain things that are the same: ~have to have some insanity ~have to be slightly obsessive ~have to be sly and cunning and pitiful ~unique and complex! I be-ith serious when I don't see this in a Erik…sigh…. ;) I see this in Kay's, Gaston, ALW, and quite a few of the stage Phantoms and those certain characters just make me smile and fully purge my emotions.

[Eriks_heart]

True Erik is crazy, but what genius isn't? I'm in love with the character. He doesn't limit himself when it comes to many things. Architecture, music, sewing (yes, I believe he made that dress for Miss Daae), and a designer of many sorts. Even though he saw himself as a monster, he held onto a hope that some one may one day see him as a human being, seeing beyond the flesh, and into the soul and the potential he holds. All he truly ever wanted (in my own opinion) was the love of a woman, which he was denied from birth because of his deformity.

The character, is dark and mysterious, which gives him an appeal to the more sensual side. He's more forth coming with what it is that he wants. And he will fight to the death if it comes down to it, for love. And that can make someone seem a bit off their rocker. But who wouldn't go to the extreme for/and out of love? If you truly loved someone, I think you would go to almost (key word) any extreme just about.

[Hidden Away]

This passion belittles my passion of music by so much I think I would be caught dead with a look of shame....if we died with a frozen face in which we had the second of death...anywho...*yuck depressing!*

yes yes, I love your perspective on the character. All he really wanted was the feel of happiness within love. For a man being denied is like failing at life. I'm not even trying to be funny, it really is devastating. I would know I see a lot of boys--I'm one of the guys an honorary male? if you will--heart broken. If they really love the girl they would run after her again until they just get depressed or she changes her mind. *hates that she relates everything to life experience*

Love is love, people will do anything for love. It's proven. and NO I don't mean Romeo and Juliet proven...I mean people will try to find it again after years of being denied. It's a shame this world isn't as open as it could be.

wonderful contribution to the subject! ^^

[Eriks_heart]

Its true, but the best way to relate something is through real life, or personal experiences. I know exactly how it is. I'm considered as one of the guys with just about all of my friends (even the girls...its kinda sad) and I see one of them all broken over some girl, to them its not some girl....shes the world, their world.

And I'm sure if it came down to it, that Erik, (being the lovable psycho that he is) if he had the power in which to do it, would make them the last 2 people on Earth.

[Hidden Away]

I hate it when guys can't tell the difference between love and just plain old attachment. You can see it. That's why when it comes to Erik, he has a reason to be attached and "in love with Christine".

I'm not sure if he would exactly kill everyone off just so they could be the last to people on earth (he would die before all of Asia and Europe would be finished with) but, if he had the power to do so then yes...sadly he would. Thing is, I want to have a life with someone that would love me too...soo there's going to be issues if he starts to kill everyone and me so we can't have our happy endings as well...but that would only happen IF he had the power.

Yes, I have my life planned ouuuuttt! ;) So Erik don't plan on killing me to stop me from my life! I love my silly humor.

^^ that was all true in a less weird sounding way.

Erik has this unique heart that will do anything because he is bound to his determination!

[operaghost94]

I DO like Erik more than Raoul... BUT. If you can't have a someone that would love you no matter what you chose, even if it's not him? And if he/she threatens you, why on earth would you stay with him? I want someone who will respect me. Respect the decisions I make. And, if he think my decisions are wrong, be willing to sit down and gently talk to me about it. THAT'S the sort of man I want...
I want a mixture of Raoul and Erik. Erik, because he's passionate. Raoul, because he's protective. But, I think that one of the the things neither of them have, is REAL respect for Christine...

[Hidden Away]

That is the perfect man...a the passion of Erik and the respect and gentlman-liness of Raoul...I could go in depth but this is Phantom's thread...

I really think they both are protective, but I can see Raoul being much more safer, because he comes into contract with reality. A cause from hiding from the world is insecurity...

I actually think that Raoul has more respect for Christine, but Erik feels more attracted to her and he sorta seems more in love with her in a different way, but it's definitely not in a sexually explicit. He really does care for her. It's just that Gerry has made the romance a bit too sexual from the 2004 movie. Think back to the book, Gaston's Erik said I am dying of love...

[The Countess]

He's passionate, that's true, but in my opinion, he's too passionate. Try obsessive. Definitly not in my top 10 traits for a man.

To be honest, they both had little respect for Christine. I mean, they both followed her everywhere, spied on her, and broke into her dressing room at least once.

[Hidden Away]

Men...they get possessive and think that they always wear the pants in a relationship. You know most women have a better backbone then men these days...well that's what I see, men they just hide behind their ''manly''ness...sure!

[operaghost94]

Yes, Erik is a bit too passionate. :P

Really? Most of the men I've met I think have more backbone. I don't know. It depends on the person I think. We can't judge someone we don't know... that's just not right. :P

Men need respect too though. Just a different kind.

[The Countess]

Men...they get possessive and think that they always wear the pants in a relationship. You know most women have a better backbone then men these days...well that's what I see, men they just hide behind their ''manly''ness...sure!

Relevance, dear? Let's stay on topic, shall we?

Anyway, yes Erik was overally passionate. Being obsessed with music and other things is one thing (we're all hypocrites there :P ) but when it comes to people, it just gets scary.

[Eriks_heart]

Its all how you look at it really. In Erik's case it wasn't technically breaking and entering.....that is if she let him in, even if she was "enthralled". And men of those times, no matter how chivalrous they may be, would only view women as property, even if they did love them.

So Erik in all reasoning, treated her more....equal than Raoul did, because technically Raoul did use her more so than Erik did. Even though Erik was more possessive over her, and a bit obsessed. But love...if you think about it, if you love some one, you get to be obsessed slightly. And in some cases, it goes to the extreme.

[Hidden Away]

Sorry for the off base-ness, it had to relate in a sense, but i had a round about way of meaning that Erik was possessive. :) I love me rants!

I think Erik saw Christine through lover's eyes. He was biased obviously, and it shows in his letters (musical version).

Love...well I personally think that Erik's love is much more obsessive that normal loves, but what can I say? Each love is different...

He does go to the extreme, he seems to go over board with his heart's desire to earn her love, almost to the point that it could be annoying...but back then who knows what made a women's heart 'go' for a guy.

[The Countess]

Its all how you look at it really. In Erik's case it wasn't technically breaking and entering.....that is if she let him in, even if she was "enthralled". And men of those times, no matter how chivalrous they may be, would only view women as property, even if they did love them.

So Erik in all reasoning, treated her more....equal than Raoul did, because technically Raoul did use her more so than Erik did. Even though Erik was more possessive over her, and a bit obsessed. But love...if you think about it, if you love some one, you get to be obsessed slightly. And in some cases, it goes to the extreme.

I don't agree. Kidnapping is still kidnapping and that's far worse than merely listening at someone's door. True, her lessons were of her own free will, but staring at her through a two-way mirror for God knows how long isn't a minor thing.

How did Raoul use her any more than Erik? The only instance that I can even think is in the musical version where he uses her as bait to capture the Phantom and even then, he didn't even think that she would be in any danger. He was wrong, but his intentions were good. Erik on the other hand used her for his lonliness, music, fame, and love without even thinking of what she wanted.

Erik did love Christine, I'm definitly not denying that, but shouldn't we stop and think if [I]his/I] "good intentions" are true? *links to the Is Erik Selfish thread*

[Esgaroth]

Hello - getting familiarized with all the threads, but had to weigh in (and these are all just my off-the-cuff opinions) :

I think I like both Gerry and Michael's, each for different reasons. Michael's has a quality to it that is entrancing, as it should be for the part, and in my ears, reveals a lot of vulnerability without being maudlin. I think that's the fine line that a lot of actors who take the part of the Phantom have to walk: giving the Phantom that pitiable quality without overdoing it and really pulling at the hearts of the listeners. I think Michael was excellent in setting the standard.

But I agree that Gerry's voice has that danger and roughness to it that really heightens the necessary fear of the character. Im not so sure Id want to match my wits against a Real Life person like the Phantom, or tangle with his emotions. And I love the idea that the film gave to the part that the "handsomeness" we saw throughout the film was very much an illusion that even Christine saw until the Point of No Return (LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE that song)...

Anyway, Im wondering if Gerry fulfilled that Rock and Roll aspect they originally wanted to put into the part when they first created POTO (but wisely chose to take a chance on Michael for his uniqueness) - The Phantom could come off really creepy if you didnt have some level of eroticism/attraction in the part.

[Hidden Away]

I can agree that the danger to Gerry's voice is attractive, but it's not what Erik is to me. He seems like a man with an angels voice. Not necessarily pure, but sweet and bold. I love how various version have to adapt to the viewers rate. The musical can do what they want because theater is theater, but the movies have to sexy it up and I personally don't like it. The Phantom was not about being sexy (although Gerry does make a point), he was a sadly insane/genus man. I just have to say it takes one special heart *cough*ANN!*cough* (<--a friend from school. I'm not putting anyone on the spot here) to love Erik This much.

[Esgaroth]

I can agree that the danger to Gerry's voice is attractive, but it's not what Erik is to me. He seems like a man with an angels voice. Not necessarily pure, but sweet and bold. I love how various version have to adapt to the viewers rate. The musical can do what they want because theater is theater, but the movies have to sexy it up and I personally don't like it. The Phantom was not about being sexy (although Gerry does make a point), he was a sadly insane/genus man. I just have to say it takes one special heart *cough*ANN!*cough* (<--a friend from school. I'm not putting anyone on the spot here) to love Erik This much.

Excellent points :D

However...

I was watching the Making of... on the DVD and Schumacher said he was deliberately looking for younger actors for the part because that translates much better on film and would accentuate the innocence of the Trio. At the risk of mixing threads here (because my thoughts about Erik should go on another thread anyway) my basic summation of Erik (in MY mind) is that with it being first loves for both Erik and Christine, the story essentially shows the destruction of that innocence...and we all view innocence as a beautiful thing. You are right in pointing out that theater is much different than movie, but movies have to be graphic in far different ways. Yeah, making the Phantom "sexy" corrupts the stageplay... I have to think the first thought for a producer of a film has to be "what will make it SELL" - and in movies, "sex" cells...whereas stage performances are able to be far more esoteric in their presentation.

But you know, Michael makes the part sexy too...as I mentioned, the part of the Phantom could come off completely creepy and horrible and it would be an 'easy' story if the villain (the Phantom) were not made sympathetic...and Michael set the standard by bringing SO MUCH vulnerability and beauty into the part. I often wonder if I wouldnt be pulled the same way if I were in Christine's shoes...I think it's important that Christine says in the end that the phsyical appearance has no bearing on how she sees him and hints at how much her heart would have leaned towards him had he not proven himself to be so destructive. If Michael's phantom had sung those words to me...I would have been "guh!"

I also think the fact that despite how attractive and sexy Gerry's Phantom was, Christine chose Raoul...Gerry's looks served to disprove the idea that beauty is the Winner of debates like the one Christine has: that her final choice was because she saw how twisted his soul was, not his face.

Then again -- I keep yelling "dumb bunny" at Christine every time I see the film. Man, if Id been able to choose...

I guess I was really just saying I like both actors and they way they portray the Phantom...I like both their voices. Theyve a gift that few have with voices that are able to reach out to people.

[Hidden Away]

I agree that a young approach for the sake of the first time Phantom phans is okay, but they should at least know that that's not really the main idea of Phantom. It would be embarrassing to meet people that loved Phantom, but you could only talk about the 2004 movie because that's all you would know *cough*ME!YearsAgo*cough*. Excuse my cough. Allergies you know. And yes, Emmy did sort of dumb up Christine, but she said that wanted her to seem helpless.

[Esgaroth]

I agree that a young approach for the sake of the first time Phantom phans is okay, but they should at least know that that's not really the main idea of Phantom. It would be embarrassing to meet people that loved Phantom, but you could only talk about the 2004 movie because that's all you would know *cough*ME!YearsAgo*cough*. Excuse my cough. Allergies you know. And yes, Emmy did sort of dumb up Christine, but she said that wanted her to seem helpless.

:D I know how that feels...its kind of the same way with one of my favorite movies "Master and Commander" - women complained about Crowe's weight gain, but those of us who had read the books were going "but...but...you have to know JACK! He loves food!"

I think the thing that has me thinking the movie version of Christine is "dumb" is the fact that her mouth is ALWAYS open!

I can't decide how I wish to 'ship' the characters. I keep thinking Christine lost an opportunity to effect the Phantom in a way that he would let go of some his life in the catacombs.

Frankly, cant wait to see the London production to see the real stage version...Im sure I will have more things to say LOL!

[commandermookie]

I'm just going to kind of...pop in here and give my thoughts. Sorry if I disturb the peace or anything.

Erik; the Phantom; Opera House; whatever you want to call him. Usually, when I hear the word 'the Phantom' I think of those screaming phangurls that shreak 'ohimgosh gerry butler ur so awsom!11!!'. However, I think most phangurls don't bother to thoroughly examine Erik (The Phantom) deep enough to understand how things really were.

He was a murderer. He killed people. Yes, he was madly in love with a beautiful young girl, but that was no reason to just kill people off. He dropped a chandelier on people's heads! At least 10 people must have died in that crash.

He was a musical genious, yes. A mad, rather insane musical genious!

I hear people say 'how could Christine resist such a guy?' How could Christine not resist him? He was a murderer! People just don't love murderers, nor do they love people who threaten to blow the town up if they don't live with them! I would have been highly, highly disturbed if Christine had chosen to stay with Erik. Even though Raoul has his faults, he was a good choice for her, I think. (You can read my thoughts Raoul in the RAOUL discussion, and my thoughts on Christine in the CHRISTINE discussion)

Ssssoo...It's pretty obvious that Erik was bad. He was good with words, and good with music, but that doesn't cover up the fact that he was a murderer.

[Esgaroth]

I'm just going to kind of...pop in here and give my thoughts. Sorry if I disturb the peace or anything.

Erik; the Phantom; Opera House; whatever you want to call him. Usually, when I hear the word 'the Phantom' I think of those screaming phangurls that shreak 'ohimgosh gerry butler ur so awsom!11!!'. However, I think most phangurls don't bother to thoroughly examine Erik (The Phantom) deep enough to understand how things really were.

He was a murderer. He killed people. Yes, he was madly in love with a beautiful young girl, but that was no reason to just kill people off. He dropped a chandelier on people's heads! At least 10 people must have died in that crash.

He was a musical genious, yes. A mad, rather insane musical genious!

I hear people say 'how could Christine resist such a guy?' How could Christine not resist him? He was a murderer! People just don't love murderers, nor do they love people who threaten to blow the town up if they don't live with them! I would have been highly, highly disturbed if Christine had chosen to stay with Erik. Even though Raoul has his faults, he was a good choice for her, I think. (You can read my thoughts Raoul in the RAOUL discussion, and my thoughts on Christine in the CHRISTINE discussion)

Ssssoo...It's pretty obvious that Erik was bad. He was good with words, and good with music, but that doesn't cover up the fact that he was a murderer.

I held off on even going near the story of POTO for along time - why? I dont know. I guess its because everyone WAS raving about the stage version.

I have to explain that I have a particular *personal* bias against musicals...the school where I attended high school relentlessly pitted the choir against the theatrical group and I was VERY heavily involved in the theatre dept...garnered quite a good little reputation as a matter of fact...and yet the choir people were of a nature that looked down upon theater students as not relevant to the musicals they put on (rarely could any of them could act) Well, I wont get into that rant because Im in my 40s and really beyond the level of such silly prejudices (I hope) - but Im telling you this because it will explain where I am coming from. I didnt pay attention to POTO because I really could not have cared less about musicals.

And even when the movie came out, I really didnt pay much attention because I was deep in another fandom - if any of you are lovers of historical literature, I highly recommend Patrick O'Brian.

Now, WHY am I now so suddenly interested in it? Okay yes, I really like Gerald Butler...and to tell the truth, I saw him in 300 and didnt blink an eye. I think it was the beard - not real fond of beards myself - so I dont come at it as a screaming fangurl. Not quite :wink:

But in finally seeing the film? *ahem* IMPRESSED. To say the least.

Now yes, there are some who will not go beyond the visual to really look at the story - all I can do is agree with you in that they miss the entire essence of the story. I dont disagree with ANY of you that its pretty silly to be so superficial. Lack of education? Sure. Shallow? Perhaps, if it remains at that level. But...opportunity for others to introduce them? Absolutely. Getting butts into the seats is a main problem for producers AND priests, if you get my drift. This is not to bring up a debate about the merits of either one 'selling' themselves. But its not entirely a thing to be scorned. With all the other distractions going on in this world, you either rise to the challenge or float along.

Having said all of that, would like to point out that purism where film doesnt really seem to work. I think its easy to blame Hollywood and commercialism for it...I think that IS a component...but if I may interject an observation I have about another fandom...

some years ago, right about the time LOTR 3 came out, another film debuted and hardly anyone noticed largely because of its timing and lack of advertizment. Russell Crowe was in a movie based on a series of novels set in the Napoleonic Era about two friends, a Royal Navy Captain and a doctor. Without getting in the wheres and withals of the story, the director/actor/producers were meticulous in presenting as accurately the history of the period...and Crowe himself went out of his way to make himself look as close to the description of the character as possiblle (Jack Aubrey) - Jack was to be a large man with blonde hair and a bit overweight. Not exactly the figure so many others had come to see in Bud White (LA Confidential) and Maximus (Gladiator), slender and ever way gorgeous...those who had read the books understood he was trying to be as PURE as possible to the role (there was a debate however among the fans/purists though on the merits of how the STORY of the film came about...many of them not too pleased)...and yet I can tell you quite a few fans of Crowe were ...um...turned off. Largely, because Crowe changed his appearance to be as true to the part as possible.

For myself, I LOVED him as Jack...but the Jack I imagine when I read the books looks more like Alan Hale (if you've ever watched Gilligan's Island) than Russell Crowe. There were a lot of purists who despised Crowe, but I cant think of any other actor who would have been as exacting as he was in portraying Jack. The captain was known to have a tremendous presence and Crowe had it in spades. The part of the doctor should have called for a man who was smaller than Jack with dark curly hair and dark eyes - instead they went with Paul Bettany, who was nowhere near to being smaller than Crowe, and they dyed his hair red...because the character was part Irish. Whenever I read the books I imagine a man more like Tony Shalhoub (Monk). But it WORKED because the actors went with on-screen chemistry, their prior working relationship and the fact that they had 'chemistry' together in playing off each other.

Having said all THAT - I really wish people who had seen M&C and didnt like it could appreciate Jack and Stephen the same way I or others do. Theres so much more to the story than watching a bunch of men float around on a boat and shoot cannons at each other. But even more so, I wish they hadnt judged the character on the fact that he WASNT a 'sexy' person (I beg to differ, but thats my own personal opinion). Had Crowe 'sexed' him up a bit, I dont know that Id object though. Depends on how he did it...but I would have at least been happy that those who sat in the theater to watch a sexy man had at least been exposed to the story. Maybe they wouldnt have checked out the books - mores the pity, theyre GREAT books - but at least they saw it!!!

I dont know why its different on stage than it is on film...other than the fact that you have to do more Show than Tell on film and do it in smaller ways. In an ideal situation, Id love to see how some of the stage actors do on film...this is not to knock their talent...Im just saying that the energy and chemistry they develop on stage may be considerably different on film...and not the manner that would be best suited for it. I thought Sarah Brightman lovely when they were doing those video spots for POTO when it first came out, but I also thought she doesn't translate well on film. Maybe it was the way it was filmed (fault of the director, not the actor), but I could tell she was emoting the same way she would on stage.

what was my point...? oh yeah...I guess Im trying to say that I personally dont scorn the screaming fan girls - at least they saw it...and maybe they just haven't encountered things in their lives yet that echo the lessons given in POTO. Again, I personally did NOT come away from the 2004 film thinking Christine should have gone with the Phantom. I dont think many others do either...unless they're people who have not had some mature level of self-analysis. In which case, I personally will continue to *INVITE* them to do it. I think the film, if anything with all its transgressions against the Canon, invites people to look at things more closely in ways that translates well for our culture. I also think the film served its purpose in highlighting things that a pure translation of the stage play to film would not have achieved.

And you are absolutely right about how the need to address the fact that the real tragedy of the piece is that the Phantom was willing to kill and unremorseful about it. What can I say about people who excuse that...except to say that it shows up regarding other stories. I can think of a film right now that involves a unrepentant murderer but the fan girls I know of think he is the Sexiest Beast Out There.

I dunno. People are strange. Or perhaps I'm too used to having my own purist sensibilities offended and have learned to love it for what it is. Maybe people are too used to the Bad Guy being the Winner. But I maintain that Butler's Phantom was no less effective in his monstrosity than any other actor.

[EriklovesLea]

I think your thoughts are excellent, Esgaroth. I had a few crushes on stars in my young teens back in the fifties:biglaugh: like Stewart Granger and Rossano Brazzi, but as I grew older I found such things childish, even in my teens, and today I rarely see anything to admire at the people who inhabit Hollywood.
But Phantom was a different story. First of all, perhaps it could be because GB was a total unknown to me. My first reaction was "OMG, this man is gorgeous" even only seeing 1/2 his face. But by the time it came to the final lair scene I said to myself, "Whoever this guy is, he can REALLY act." He had me in tears, and feeling emotions I felt were long dead.
Yes, some of it was because of many rejections throughout my own life, that I resonated with with him so deeply. I cried my eyes out for days, and even when I wasn't watching it, cried thinking of this poor man's rejection when he loved so deeply. I do so know that feeling. gerry was able to become the Phantom to the point that when I first saw a picture of him on line, my first thought was, "That can't be the man who played Phantom. there must be another GB.":biglaugh:
Now in the past year since I first saw POTO(April, 2008) I have been inspired to write a book which is published, and have cut my antidepressants in half. So for that, I thank ALW, Joel and Gerry. I still love this movie with all my heart. it is spectacular, gorgeous, heart rending, tragic yet beautiful. I watch it often now.
Now as far as Gerry's later movies, i do not care for al lot of what he is doing now. I was able to get a maniped versoion of "300" without the sex stuff and nudity, but did not like it anyway. And I agree about the beard. it was ugly and looked fake. The scenery was depressing and the mutants were ridiculous.
I had rented a movie called "The 300 Spartan's" an older movie with Richard Egan. Now that was the way I imagined the battle of Thermopylae. I have not seen any of his movies since "Nim's Island." I have seen a few of the older ones, "Attila" which I really likes, "Dear Frankie" which I loved, "Nim" which was cute and sweet, "Shattered" which I liked a lot, "Lara Croft 2" which wasn't too bad and "Timeline" which was pretty good. I may rent a couple of his older ones. I do not liie nudity and overt sex scenes in movies as I feel they have no place.
But back to POTO. In my book, if that were the only movie Gerry ever made, it would put him very high on my short list of great actors. I loved it, I will always love it, and it influenced my book.
Anne:)

[Hidden Away]

I can agree that Erik was a messed up guy and he was murderous but from various versions of the story it seems that it could have been prevented, but it was his wrong set of mind and the nature of the time period. To them that would have been close to the end of the world to have so strange man haunt the Opera, to us it's story.

[xXphantomaddictedXx]

Somehow I'm feeling compelled to throw my own nickels and dimes into this discussion, so here are my thoughts. Although it may seem like he was, Erik was never "in love" with Christine at all. It seems much more likely that he was "in lust" with her because, in all (or most) versions, he doesn't have a lot of social knowledge. Due to this, he seems to have trouble explaining how he feels and what he wants -- meaning he wouldn't know true love even if it was right under his nose. Any thoughts?

[KChan88]

I think that's a REALLY interesting take on things, Sarah! And I pretty much totally agree with you. I do think Erik cared about Christine because she was willing to show compassion to him, and because he recognized her lonliness, but it's hard for me to believe sometimes that he was truly "in love" with her because, really, how much did he know about her? I think he was for sure "in love" with her voice, she was sweet and obviously beautiful, and he knew her father had died. But other than that, what did he know about the ins and outs of her personality? They never really spoke of anything but music together. It doesn't seem like he knew many other specifics, and to really be in love with someone, I really think a person needs to be willing to get to know their partner inside and out. To me, that's why Raoul and Christine always worked, because they DID know each other, and had since childhood, which is especially evidenced in the novel.

As far as Erik being "in lust" for Christine, yes, I for sure think that's true, as Don Juan shows. I mean, you don't have to listen too hard to the lyrics to get that impression. I think Christine was Erik's muse, which he interpreted as being in love with her. For some reason he latched on to her as his link to the outside world. He obviously had VERY strong feelings for her, but I'm not entirely sure he knew quite what they were, as Sarah said, due to his lack of social knowledge. I've always thought that Erik needed to experience some sort of familial or friendship kind of love, before he could ever fully understand romantic love. And the sad thing is, I've always wondered if Erik hadn't tried to force romantic love on Christine, just letting her be happy with and marry Raoul, and continuing his role as her teacher and developing a friendship with her, might have helped him find his way into the world. But then, if that had happened it wouldn't be the story it is, would it?

I mean I know people talk about love at first sight and things like that, but with Erik's lack of human contact, I think it would take a little more. He needs to experience other forms of love, before he jumps right into romance, which is often complicated, obviously. I've always thought Erik REALLY needed a mother's love first, because his was such horrid woman, and always wondered if Madame Giry could have filled that role. It's a thought, anyway.

[xXphantomaddictedXx]

As far as Erik being "in lust" for Christine, yes, I for sure think that's true, as Don Juan shows. I mean, you don't have to listen too hard to the lyrics to get that impression. I think Christine was Erik's muse, which he interpreted as being in love with her. For some reason he latched on to her as his link to the outside world. He obviously had VERY strong feelings for her, but I'm not entirely sure he knew quite what they were, as Sarah said, due to his lack of social knowledge. I've always thought that Erik needed to experience some sort of familial or friendship kind of love, before he could ever fully understand romantic love.

Exactly. Christine was nothing more than a muse, but because Erik had no previous contact with anyone, he chose to interpret his feelings as love and possibly lust. That is where it gets somewhat complicated, however. He went out of his way to murder many people -- including Piangi and Joseph Buquet -- all because he was losing his muse and could not accept it. Furthermore, we all know he saw Raoul as a competitor for Christine's attention, but did anyone ever think Raoul felt the same? (I'll explain in the Raoul thread so that this one stays on topic.)

[EriklovesLea]

Interesting ideas. I agree that Erik was somewhat lusting after Christine, as he probably learned everything he knew about love out of books. Many books of those days were pretty graphic. Sad, that he had no prior experience of any kind-how tough it must have been for him, but yet at the end, he was able to let her go to Raoul, a gift of great sacrifice and magnanimity for him.
When i wrote my book, I had Erik become part of a family. Not a mother and father, but brothers and sister. There was an older coupld too whom he becamse very close to. But i think learning to react with a family gave him the ability to fall in love with his soon to be wife later.
Anne

[Mrs Nadir Khan]

I would just like to point out that books from the time weren't "graphic" in the sense most readers would think. True that censorship laws were not in place, however, the unbridled passions of the "gothic" novels and "romance" novels of the time fell out of fashion relatively early in the 1800s. The era during which Erik would have lived would have been dominated by Verne, Dickens, and "adventure" novels. And French literature, more specifically would have been rooted mostly in the realism movement, trying to depict everyday life of the average people. If you suggest that Erik read books from the 1700s, then you might be on to something about him drawing inspiration in his attempts to win Christine's heart through fiction.

As far as Erik merely "lusting" after Christine because he couldn't possibly know what "love" was: I would like to know which version you guys are talking about. It sounds like you mean Leroux!Erik, but Katie mentions Madame Giry serving as a mother-figure to Erik, which suggests you are talking about ALW's Phantom. The reason I ask, is that the Phantom story itself has so many versions and in a few of those, Erik has experienced other forms of love (although not necessarily romantic love). I agree that ALW and Leroux Erik never knew affection of any sort (other than pity in the former's experience) and could easily mistake inspiration or lust for the real deal. But what about Susan Kay's Erik?

SPOILERS



In Kay's novel, Erik is shown genuine, human affection throughout the novel. Although denied motherly affection in his earliest years, at 13, Erik is taken in by an aging stone mason named Giovanni. Erik and Giovanni both acknowledge a father-son relationship between them. Giovanni treats Erik with the affection, respect, and pride that a healthy parent-child relationship should exhibit. It, of course, all comes tumbling down when Giovanni's daughter, Luciana enters the scene, and in her bratty infatuated state, demands to see Erik's real face and runs away to her death afterwards. Still, Erik has come to know two types of love in this scenario: parent-child and puppy love.

The next chapter spans Erik's time in Persia. There, he befriends the Daroga of Mazenderan, Nadir Khan, and bonds with Nadir's son, Reza. The bond he makes with Nadir lasts the rest of his lifetime-- even beyond Erik euthanizing a terminally ill Reza. This enduring friendship, though not necessarily romantic, should have taught Erik something about love. Love-- whether romantic, platonic, or parental-- is deep, lasting, and unselfish despite circumstances. After all, Nadir spends five years in a Mazenderan prison after smuggling Erik out of the country. Shouldn't that have taught Erik something?

The last relationship I'd like to touch on from Kay that should have helped Erik form a good idea about love is his partnership with architect Charles Garnier. The two spend fifteen years building a monument to music and to Paris and they don't always agree. However, this platonic relationship should have taught Erik that squabbles over things you are passionate about don't need to degenerate into violence. I don't think a building and Christine are the same thing, but I do think that Erik should have learned while building an opera house with someone else that life is about give and take.

All this said, do you believe that Kay!Erik had the foundation to truly love Christine?

[KChan88]

Really, really interesting points, Cassie. I've never actually read Kay myself, but from having read spoilers and such, and reading what you wrote here, it seems that Erik would (in Kay-verse) have the foundation to truly love Christine. In this version he's had all types of relationships, which would definitely allow him to know what being in love was, and should have taught him how to show it, at least better than he does.

I think too, however, that in other versions, where Erik hadn't experienced much affection at all, he could have an idea of what being in love felt like. Erik was very intelligent, after all, and this was a huge rush of emotion. I think the bigger problem is that Erik hardly knew how to express that he was in love with Christine. He thought he knew it, but telling her, or anyone for that matter, was something else entirely. I'm wondering where the disconnect between him believing he loved her and attempting to express it occurred? Something to think about. His understanding of romantic love, it appears to me, wasn't complete because of the way he acted. Some piece of the puzzle was missing, which isn't surprising considering his tragic past.