Movie: Old Giry or Young Giry?

[The Phantom]

At the beginning of the movie in the black and white scene, there is a "Madame Giry" who the auctioneer 'introduces' very clearly. But heres the question... which Giry is it? Was the lady Madame Giry or Meg Giry. Discussion on this topic remains here. :)

[Meg Giry]

Well, if you look at the woman's face, it's played by Miranda Richardson, (with a little aging makeup), so that would indicate it being Giry Snr. If it was Meg, they'd either have Jennifer Ellison aged up or have a lookalike, I think. But it was definitely Miranda.

[The Phantom]

I thought that too, but the only problem I have with that is the age difference sort of. Raoul was definitely years younger than Madame Giry, and he was near falling apart when they introduced him in the beginning of the movie. Meg and Raoul would have been in the same decade of age or so making them similar in physical states. The Giry shown at the beginning seemed stable, making me think that she was Meg. Madame Giry would have been like… maybe 90 or so by the time the auction started.

[Opera Ghost]

That's what I worked out, The Phantom. It doesn't make sense if you estimate the probable age of Madame Giry at the auction & during the film, because if you do that in relative to Raoul's age, their ages at the auction don't make sense. Raoul should be much younger & Madame Giry older. Also, in the credits they put things like "young Giry" (from the circus/fairground scene) and "older Giry" ecetera but they don't put an "old Raoul" - yet the figure in the wheelchair (Raoul in old age) does not look like it could be Patrick Wilson. If it is, then he must have a hell of a lot of makeup and prothsetics on.

OG

[Meg Giry]

I see your point, but I don't see why Jennifer Ellison wasn't aged up to play the role if it was Meg there, y'know? It doesn't make any sense? As for the credits, I think "Giry" seems to refer to Madame Giry, whereas Meg Giry is referred to as Meg throughout the stage show, at least, so perhaps the same could be true for the film.

I actually think the aging of Raoul could be deliberate. Perhaps a symbolic thing to represent how he's gone into decline following the death of Christine, the love of his life? That to me would explain the presence of Madame Giry, if it is her, because we're seeing everything from Raoul's POV, yes? He wishes to buy the lot he does because it reminds him of Christine and the past, and at the time of the original Phantom events, that would be how Giry looked, indicating perhaps that his mind is regressing into the past, when he was happy.

Well, it makes sense to me ;)

[The Phantom]

Sometimes if a movie creator tries to make a young person look older, like a teenager appear in their sixties, it doesn’t work out and the plot is ruined. I’m starting to believe that maybe the Madame Giry featured in the beginning of the movie was supposed to be Meg, but just played by Miranda Richardson. Its easier to age someone who is already in the middle of their life than it is for someone as young as Jennifer Ellison.

I can’t tell if that is Patrick Wilson as old Raoul, if it is the makeup is heavy.

[Meg Giry]

They should have made it clearer though, it'd save us having this debate, really. My head hurt after coming up with that theory :-p

[The Phantom]

They should have labeled the actor more clearly to save us the strife of trying to decipher who is the Giry at the beggining of the movie. I suppose they chose it to be this way for us to think hard and have some mystery left to the movie, to keep us wanting to watch it more and more.

[Opera Ghost]

I looked on imdb on the cast list for Phantom and they don't seem to have the "old" characters. They have a young Christine, young Meg, & young Raoul though..I don't remember them in the film! Can anyone else?

OG

[Meg Giry]

Looking at those names I'm rather confused...I don't remember them either! I only remember Young Giry.

[The Phantom]

They might have been characters cut from the movie from scenes, but they didn't update the database when it was released. Though I remember seeing a young girl in the movie in Christine's flashbacks that was supposed to be Meg as a very small child. Sometimes the internet movie database is slightly off.

[wolfwynd]

It was deifnatly Madam Giry - in the film companion it's says its Mme Giry and the person is played by Miranda Richardson (Mme Giry...) - I suppose the toll of having to always watch out for Erik and over Christine really took it out of Raoul, hense the reason he's not aged as well as Mme Giry.

[The Phantom]

I could tell that the old man was definitely Patrick Wilson, since he had that look to him and the makeup was real, but in a sence could be differed from an actual old man. But I can't be really sure whether the woman at the beginning of the movie was Meg or Madame Giry; the timeline doesn't line up.

[Raoul de Chagny]

I think in the black and white scenes that it must be Meg Giry with Raoul because even when she was young, the actress looked very much like Miranda Richardson, like she really was her daughter. And in some mother/daughter situations, the daughter grows to look like her mother, so if Madame Giry died, Meg would be old enough to take her place as Madame Giry. Then it all lines up with the timeline and she looked younger than Raoul.

[sing_for_me]

It is definitely the older Giry.

This is how I rationalize it:

She is called "Madame Giry." If Meg had simply never married, then it would be "Mademoiselle Giry." If she had married, it is very very very unlikely she would marry someone who also had the last name "Giry." Therefore, in my mind at least, it has to be the elder Giry.

[Always_Erik_Fan]

Brava sing_for_me; that's exactly the point I was about to make! Also, someone on the other POTO board I'm a member pointed out, the script has ONE name for each character, and the character is known as MADAME GIRY in the script. If it would have been Meg, they would have put MEG. :)

[Requiem]

I believe it's Madame Giry... I realise that it doesn't ever say specifically the Madame Giry, but neither does it say, or even impress, that it is Meg, and there is a hell load of factors pointing to Mme Giry.

If anyone has read the screenplay included in The Phantom of the Opera Companion, you'd know that it pretty much clears up any debate on who the old woman is. For starters, they call her "Madame Giry", and secondly, it explains that this woman's "years as a dancer and Ballet Mistress assist her elegant and perfect posture". Meg wasn't a Ballet Mistress for all we know. It goes on to explain that Raoul, while "15 years younger than Madame Giry, does not enjoy her good health". So I think that kind of clears it up...

Also remember that Raoul just recently lost Christine. We know how much he loved her, so her death probably tore him apart. He looked like he was dying really, which signifies that he could not live without her. So it's kind of no wonder he looked so old and beat. He was probably lost without Chrstine.

[Always_Erik_Fan]

Originally posted by Requiem
I believe it's Madame Giry... I realise that it doesn't ever say specifically the Madame Giry, but neither does it say, or even impress, that it is Meg, and there is a hell load of factors pointing to Mme Giry.

If anyone has read the screenplay included in The Phantom of the Opera Companion, you'd know that it pretty much clears up any debate on who the old woman is. For starters, they call her "Madame Giry", and secondly, it explains that this woman's "years as a dancer and Ballet Mistress assist her elegant and perfect posture". Meg wasn't a Ballet Mistress for all we know. It goes on to explain that Raoul, while "15 years younger than Madame Giry, does not enjoy her good health". So I think that kind of clears it up...

Also remember that Raoul just recently lost Christine. We know how much he loved her, so her death probably tore him apart. He looked like he was dying really, which signifies that he could not live without her. So it's kind of no wonder he looked so old and beat. He was probably lost without Chrstine.

*claps* VERY nice point! Also, people are continously saying "If Raoul's on his last legs, how would Mme. Giry be alive?!" Well I was thinking about it the other night and I realized this.

Madame Giry and Erik are almost the same age. Think about when she rescued him: he looked to be maybe 3 or 4 years younger, but still relatively of similar ages. And if Erik is still alive (as I believe the rose on Christine's grave proves) then Madame Giry could definitely still be alive!

[BlondeAngel]

well, the script clearley says old Mme Giry !! but it is a little unclear ... cause she would have 2 be like 25-30 years older than Raoul and they looked like they were about the same age !! but It was defentely miranda under all that make-up !! dunna what is going on with that scene !! it would have been grate if Jennifer was the old woman in the end

[Countess Cain]

cause she would have 2 be like 25-30 years older than Raoul and they looked like they were about the same age !!

Some people deteoriate in old age faster than others. Those that have suffered a lot can seem to be older than they are. You're always hearing in books about how a character looks like they're '10-20' years older because of some bad events. The case could be true here... With Christine's death, for sure, and other things, like worry, etc. I mean, what if Christine had been sick before she had died, for a long time? He'd certainly take care of her, you know?

But, overall, to be simple, I think it's the older Giry. =)

[Maria]

Guys it was Meg at the biggining and not Mme Giry couse she were dead at the time and therefor she couldn't come there to the Auction so her daughter came insted that for sure.

[Opera Ghost]

But then think of the resemblance between the auction Madame Giry and the Giry throughout the film. It is definatly the same actress (as the cast list proves) so, if the auction Giry is Meg then would would they put Madame Giry's mother to play her own daughter. It is definatly the same actress, so therefore the same character.

[Luciana]

In the movie though, the ordeal in 1870 and Christine was 16, so Meg couldn't be much older or younger then that. That means Mme Giry would have had to be anywhere from 35-45. The auction happened in 1919, which is 49 years later. She would have been 84-94, in which case she would not look quite that young.

Also, out of respect, most adult women are called 'Madame', just like in America we use 'Ms.' instead of 'Miss'. Even if she never married, she would be called Madame Giry.

With the argument about The Phantom being alive, nothing seemed to physically hurt him, and once Christine left, is it possible that he lost what was left of his humanity, to become nothing more then what he was known to be before, a phantom. He lived for Christine and his music, and once she left and the Music of the Night was over, what was left for him to live for?

I really think that it's Meg, just because of the timeline. I think that more then the monkey representing the Phantom, it was meant to represent Christine, in which case both of them would have had a connection to her. Meg was her best friend through her time at the Opera house and Raoul was her husband.

[The_Persian]

I think it's supposed to be Mme Giry, but i think that would be impossible. She looked healthy and younger then the old Raoul, and she is defenitly older then Raoul! I like to think it's Meg... it works more logically then if it was Mme Giry.

[Mouette]

They call her "Madame" Giry. If it was Meg and she was married, they would call her "Madame X". If it was Meg unmarried, they would call her "Mademoiselle Giry", because Madame vs. Mademoiselle is like Mrs. vs Miss in English (as Erik notes in Kay's Phantom when talking to his mother's friend when he goes back to his childhood home). Ergo, it is Giry Senior.

[phantoms_nemo]

Well the only thing I could think of is that the people used Miranda to portray Meg Giry trying to make the audiance believe that it is Meg.

[King Kovifor]

Hey,

Me and my family of four (minus one who never discusses it) have a dispute. Who is the lady at the beginning. Me and my Brothers idea is:

It's the Madam Giry daughter as she'd be WAY to old to be still standing. And the way she looked at that monkey music thing was like the daughter.

My Mother's theory is this:

It's Madam Giry because they call her that but we give the argue that last names carry own and would also be the daughter unless she got married.

:mask: King Kovifor

[Masked Shadows]

It's actually Madame Giry.

I think it is Meg beacuse Madame Giry would be very, very old and Raoul and Meg and Christine were all near the same age. She probally didn't get married so she kept the name Giry.

[King Kovifor]

OK Thanks. That's probably true. We never took that the daughter was about the same age... We did metnion that the original Madam Giry would be very old.

[The Phantom]

Theres a thread full of debate in the forum "Phantom of the Opera (2005)" about this subject. I'm going to merge this thread into the other one to keep it neat and tidy. ;)

[The Khanum]

I HAVE THE ANSWER! ::Que the trumpets!:: It can't be Meg because she would not be referred to as "Madame" Giry. If she never married, she would be "Mademoiselle," and if she did marry, she would have a different last name. And the auctioneer calls her Madame Giry, so therefore, she is Meg's mother. :D At least, it works out in my mind. ::Shrugs::

Sorry if someone else already brought that up...I'm lazy and don't have the patience to browse through three pages of posts.

[IamErik771]

Correct, KT... and happy birthday to you! :D

It's definitely Mme. Giry (the elder). Meg had never really met Raoul, after all. She only saw him once, and they had never spoken to each other. And I think it made sense for Raoul to look so much older than she did. After all, Christine had passed away fairly recently; that could have caused him to become sick with grief, and there's no indication that Mme. Giry had suffered a loss as well.

[King Kovifor]

Originally posted by Erik is my Hero
I HAVE THE ANSWER! ::Que the trumpets!:: It can't be Meg because she would not be referred to as "Madame" Giry. If she never married, she would be "Mademoiselle," and if she did marry, she would have a different last name. And the auctioneer calls her Madame Giry, so therefore, she is Meg's mother. :D At least, it works out in my mind. ::Shrugs::

Sorry if someone else already brought that up...I'm lazy and don't have the patience to browse through three pages of posts.

Now you've confused me... Can you explain that again?

[The Khanum]

Okay...the auctioneer in the beginning calls the woman "Madame Giry." If she was indeed Meg, she could not be called Madame Giry...if she had married before in her lifetime, she would have been Madame Whatever-her-husband's-last-name-was, and if she had remained single, she would be Mademoiselle Giry, not Madame.

And thank you, James! ::Hug::

[CountessDaae]

I thought Mademoiselle is to be used for the younger women. Madame, is used for those older. Madame is not given to a woman because they are married. The thing about it is, The Young Madame Giry could not of lived that long and have know what was actually in the lair of the Phantom. Because, Meg was the one who saw the music box not her mother. Her mother never saw it. She would not of know what it was like. Plus, if you look at how old The old giry was in the first scene, she looked quite young compared to Raoul. If she was the mother, she would look alot older because the mother was at least in her 40s late 50s. And i believe in the book, it says that it is meg.

Also you have to think about the times, would the mother be able to live past 65. No. Because the age of dying was young in the 1800s. Her daughter on the older hand would have lived longer (naturally) than both Christine and her mother (naturally). Because she was about 4-5 years younger than Christine.

In my opinion...anyways.

[Mouette]

No, KT is right, I think. Madame is like Mrs. in English. You wouldn't call an unmarried woman 'Mrs.' no matter HOW old she was. And, pretty and sweet as she is, I can't see Meg remaining unwed, which means that her last name would have changed at some point in time.

[YoungGiry]

Originally posted by CountessDaae
The thing about it is, The Young Madame Giry could not of lived that long and have know what was actually in the lair of the Phantom. Because, Meg was the one who saw the music box not her mother. Her mother never saw it. She would not of know what it was like.

Now here I must disagree. Why should Madame Giry not know what is in Erik's lair? She, after all, was the only one who was in any possible reasoning on good terms with Erik. Even if she did not speak to him in person for most of his life, she would have recognized the music box from the toy he made when he was with the gypsies. And most likely, she went down to Erik's lair after her daughter did in the end, so she would have seen the music box. It does not make sense for Meg to have known about the music box when her mother did not.

I agree about the aging, but I think that was an oversight of Andrew Loyld Webber, and later of Joel Shuachmer.

[Pandora]

I think is the mother of Meg Giry but than gain it could be Meg Giry grown up played by the same actress Miranda Richardson but than at the end you see the young lover goes to Christine's grave where a rose is there already which gives me the impression that is possibly Meg Giry and not her mother cause isn't she and the Count around the same age? Wait...am wrong here...tis her mother the older Giry she wzn't so much older than the Count herself...

Sorry, am goin by looks and how old they look here...

[IamErik771]

Aye, I think Mme. Giry, the Phantom, and Raoul were pretty close age-wise. There was probably at most a 10-year age difference between them. Plus, as I said earlier, it made sense for Raoul to look so much older in those scenes because Christine had died recently, and he was dying of grief and loneliness because of that. If it were Meg, the auctioneer would have addressed her as Mademoiselle Giry (if she were unwed) or Madame <husband's name> (if she were married or widowed.) Therefore, it had to be Madame Giry, the elder.

[Luciana]

But I have taken french for a few years and my french teacher told me that out of respect, waiters and things like that always call a woman over eighteen 'Madame' in France. Well, the woman in question was obviously over eighteen. So, the same rule may hold up for auctioneers.

I think Raoul was more then a decade younger then Mme Giry. If Christine and Raoul were 'CHILDHOOD' sweethearts, that usually requires both to be children, does it not? So Raoul couldn't have been 25 or older, because would you let your child daughter have picnics in the attic with a man nine years older then her?

[Phantom's Sonnet]

I was quite confused myself, it couldn't of been Madame Giry because than she would be like what never die? I am not really sure, it defiantly is Miranda Richardson in make up but, how would Madame Giry be still alive while Raoul is old and about to die? He doesn't make really any since to have it as Old Giry. In the past Madame is like what in her mid fifties, while Christine, Raoul and Meg are the almost exact same age. Wouldn't Old Giry be dead by the time Raoul is old?

[Bee]

ALW intended the old woman to be Mme. Giry, not Meg Giry. In the movie companion (page 61), it says:

There is one old woman, Mme. Giry, who stands a little apart. She is dressed in black, her hat covered in black veiling like a widow. Her years as a dancer and Ballet Mistress assist her elegant and perfect posture.

...

Raoul, the Vicomte de Chagny, in the wheelchair, guided by his Nurse/Nun. Although fifteen years younger than Mme. Giry, he does not enjoy her good health. He seems small and fatigued in his beautifully tailored clothes, a cashmere throw around his barely functioning legs.

:)

[AAW0487]

I totally agree with Bee! Because this was a discussion among my friends as well. So as soon as I bought the Companion to POTO I checked out the back and it said it was Madame Giry. The reason that Madame Giry looks so much better than Raoul is because she must have still had a good life after that night the chandelier fell. Where as Raoul must have not. It could be that after Christine died that he fell apart or maybe Christine and him had issues over the years, but either way it seemed that he had aged faster because he had been depressed about something.

[Why So Silent]

AAAaaaaah. Okay. So it's been confirmed. OLD!Giry is Madame Giry. Okay. I thought it might be Meg, aging to look like (be played by) her mother, because I've seen that done in other movies. ...none come to mind at the moment, but yeah.

I was actually telling my friend the other day that we were watching it why it had to be Meg Giry and not Madame Giry, and the argument about Raoul came up. He does look much older than Giry, and this is especially accented with his wheelchair. Thus my deduction of how it had to be Meg.

[AAW0487]

I know exactly what you mean Kat! My boyfriend said that there was no way it could be Madame Giry, because Raoul looked so much older. And I have also seen movies where they age the mother or fathers children so they look like their parents...hope that made sense, i'm kinda tired..LoL!

I'm especially surpirsed that Meg wasn't featured at all in the end. But I suppose the way the movie played out it made more sense to put Madame Giry at the end.

[AngelicRose]

It's Madame Giry. The companion book says it is.

[Hann]

Wow - what a great and thorough debate. I must say that I too had the same question and think the answer is brilliant and far from any oversight. It makes sense that if someone would have aged in great shape it would have been Mme Giry. All throughout the musical, she has an impecable posture and calmness. It also makes sense for Raoul to look older than he really is, having lost his wife.

[sweet_intoxication]

The age difference is really weird then...so can someone calculate how old Mme Giry was then?

And...I wonder what happened to Meg Giry, whom Erik promised Mme Giry she would become an Empress in the Lereux's novel.

To me, it always made more sense that it would be MEG Giry, because then the logic that Meg and Raoul (Christine's closest) are together and visiting her grave.

[angelgirl]

I agree with everyone who said it was Madame Giry.
I presonally think that Meg couldn't have looked that old by then.
A.G.

[Hidden Away]

I am actually torn by this one. Madame giry...it woudl totally work, by age. But since she was so old already at the time I see that it could be Meg that was at the auction that day.
Only basic fully off the movie 2004, I would say that it's young Meg because of the bone structure and the wide jaw.
Honestly, I'm just not really getting the difference.

[The Countess]

When I first saw this, I thought Meg. I mean it would make sense, right? Raoul was 60-some at the time, so Meg would have to be around that age as well. However, Madame Giry was a 40 year old woman in the movie, so in the black and white scenes she would have to be 80-some which wasn't a likely age at the time. I think the directors just goofed up on this one (and just about everyhting else) considering that it is supposed to be Madame Giry.

It still irks me quite some...

[angelofthenight]

Actually I recently bought the Companion book to the Phantom of the Opera 2004 movie and it said in the book and on a special feature that I watched on the two disc special addition that the woman was Meg... so I think it was a little confusing but for all intents and purposes the woman was Meg.

[Kojinka]

There is evidence pointing to both Meg and Madame Giry. When my sis and I saw it in the theater, we thought it was Meg. She looked around the right age, since she's not supposed to be all that much younger than Christine and Raoul. and I would understand if they would want an older Meg to resemble her mother; they do that quite often in other films. We already knew from the stage show that Raoul did not age very well. Mme Giry had to have been somewhere in her forties during the main storyline, and If the lady in the black and white parts is supposed to be the same Mme. Giry, then she aged miraculously well. Even with the fact that she worked with ballet, it's still surprising she could've lived that long in that era.

[Hidden Away]

Perhaps they weren't thinking about the age difference so much because in the show it wasn't something that could be seen too easily there. I really just want to say Meg, but you know the writers intended it to be Mme Giry...right?

[The Countess]

I know that they use the same actress for Madame Giry and Meg/Madame Giry not only in the movie but in the musical as well. You can see her in the stage show with her face in a veil. As said before, it could be either one of the characters but I am more partial to Meg than Madame Giry considering the age. Not to mention, at least in the stage version, the woman in the begining looks considerably younger than Raoul. That could just be because she doesn't have time to make a costume change like that, but it could mean other things as well. To me, it makes more sense that it's Meg, but if the directors intend it to be Madame Giry, that works well too.

[Hidden Away]

Okay so I re-read all of this and I'm confused. I just want someone to answer one question. Is it Meg or Madame...I'm just so out of it because there's just too many thought. But then again Haley said something about having the actual interpretation that Joel wanted...and i think it was Meg...reasonable age...Madame Would have been dead too...soo.

[The Countess]

I think in the script it stated that it was Madame Giry, contrary to the belief of it being Meg. Again, Meg makes a lot more sense to me personally, but I guess if the script says it's Madame Giry, it's Madame Giry...

[Hidden Away]

Oh scripts they make the difference in everything! Sooo, technically Madame Giry would be like...99 something and basically really old. I hope they considered that when designing the make-up.