Can we really love Erik?

[Christine Daaé]

Okay, guys, a question:

Many phangirls on other boards have said that they are "in love" with Erik, the Phantom. Many say this because Gerik -- Gerry/Erik -- is so "hot", others say it because they are deluding themselves into thinking they could really love Erik from the book the way he is.

But I ask this: could any phangirls, were they faced with Erik, really be able to love him as he is in the book? In the book, he's a madman. He kills, extorts, and kidnaps to get his way. He holds Christine against her will, and threatens to blow up the Opera House if she does not marry him. Not only that, but he is said to be hideous -- and not just a Gerik-style rash, either; I'm talking like a human corpse.

So, could you love Erik when he was this way? Could you, unlike Christine, stay with him as he fought his demons, knowing that you may be in danger the entire time? Could you be patient, knowing that he may never recover from the abuse he suffered?

Think hard about this one. Think really hard.

~ Zelda de le Fantôme

[Countess Cain]

...Probably not, and I don't really think I ever said I did. XD

And mainly I couldn't because of his attitude, not even thinking about his horrid looks.

Erik, to be truthful, reminds me of a friend I had had, but no longer really wish to know. He has seriously violent tendencies, and though he hasn't ever killed anyone, obviously, I wouldn't put it past him. Also, much like Erik, he has had a life one could pity. His family isn't very well off, he's had people really bother him at school because of his not-so-great looks, his clothes, etc. But, instead of ignoring it, he gets mad at people. He's made death threats and stuff too.

However, he was always good to me... In a way that... You know, is more than a friendship. It scared me last year, and as he does more things to get himself in trouble, I finally 'ran away', trying to avoid him whenever I can.

And though I pity him majorly, just like I do Erik, I wouldn't 'stay' with him.

So, to be simple, I'd run away with Raoul too... Though I wish I could do more to help him. But it would be too hard to change him.

[andydrumm05]

I don't consider all those girls are "in love" cuz I think it's lust rather than love...

But then again, I'm just a stupid member of the male species!! LOL

But one thing they need to realize is that they would be stuck with the Phantom and not Gerry. I mean...The Phantom is one who kills, and is wanted for murder, and I don't think most of them would like that lifestyle. But then again, what do I know?

[The Khanum]

Leroux's Erik? No, I don't think so. The way he is portrayed makes it hard to even really like him, let alone love him. But Kay's Erik? Yes. I am completely in love with Kay's Erik...he moves me to the point of tears everytime I read Phantom. I base all my opinions on Kay!Erik, because I believe that he is the most realistic version of Erik.

Yes, many phangirls love the concept of Gerik. I'll admit, I truly enjoy 2004 POTO and Gerik...I think he did a wonderful job. But he's not the Erik I fell in love with. Kay's Erik is truly a beautiful, complex, and utterly intriguing character. It is her Erik I refer to in my username: Kay's Erik is my Hero.

~Erik is my Hero

[Christine Daaé]

Even in Kay's book, however, he is a dangerous man who kills for pleasure. He flew into murderous rages even when around Christine. No doubt he would have killed even the woman he loved if she made him angry enough, which she almost did multiple times.

Maybe I'm just biased toward the Leroux Erik, since I don't consider even a wonderful book like Kay's to be "canon".

We are also faced with the question: is it romantic or sympathetic love we feel for Erik?

~ Zelda de le Fantôme

[cinty]

You make some brilliant points, Zelda, and I think you are right. Facing the facts, I don't think I COULD love Erik, even Kay's Erik. He was beautiful, but he was still a murderer, a drug addict and did you see how he was always getting mad at Christine? I love the character of Erik because I pity him and know there is a beautiful man in there, but if I only saw the outer surface, I would be terrified and run off. I don't know. It's so hard..... but I think, I couldn't love him. I love to think I could, but no, I don't think I could. As Zelda says.. he murders... he gets bad tempered so easily...
But it's so hard to say! I keep on thinking, "BUUTTTT...." Maybe...I just don't know..

[Christine Daaé]

Well, I'm having a hard time deciding, too. I know I can sympathize with Erik, the same way Christine did at the end of the book. I have my reasons.

Part of me wants to be able to love Erik. The other part says "No, he's too dangerous." But then . . . oooh, it's so hard!

I'm a very tolerant person, you see. I don't scream at deformities, and I like to think I'm brave enough to come face to face with a murderer. I'm also very patient, and can wait out the demons people face; I've done it before. But this is Erik we're talking about . . .

I don't know. I just don't know.

~ Zelda de le Fantôme

[The Khanum]

Again, basing my theories on Kay...

When Erik murders people, it happens for two reasons: One, it is necessary (at least it is to him, with his distorted views of morality). Two, his swift and violent temper loosens his grasp on reality. Now, getting down to the core of this argument: Is Erik a "murderer" in the accepted sense of the term? I have had this discussion with many, many people over the past year...my opinion always being "no."

Of course Erik is a murderer...he kills people in every version. BUT...can his acts be lumped together with the common crimes of everyday men? Even people of the streets have accepted the moral codes of society...but Erik was not a person of the streets! His first murder was of the man trying to rape him (again, taken from Kay). He saw it as a way out. Then, in Persia, he is forced to construct chambers of death and horror for the khanum at threat of his own life. He himself said that only when he spoke with Nadir, his only friend, was he "not dreaming that he was drowning in a sea of blood."

Erik lived every day being surrounded by death itself. He was referred to as the "Living Corpse" during the gypsy fair, and the blood of many men was on his hands. But can we truly hold Erik in the same light as the common murderer? I don't think so. Can we love him despite his dangerous and disturbing personality? ...I think we could.

But that's just my opinion.

~Erik is my Hero

[Maria]

I say i actualy would but in one condition that as long as he is with me he will not do what he usealy does couse if so i am leaving and never come back so if he is smart enough he will stop if not then see ya i am out of there

[IamErik771]

Very interesting discussion, and great points from everyone. Speaking personally, I don't think I could "love" the novel's Erik if I were a woman. I definitely pity him and sympathize with him, but love? In the novel, Erik has grown quite fond of killing, and has demonstrated many times that he will do absolutely anything it takes to get his way. I don't think his physical ugliness would bother me in the least, but his actions are unforgivable, even for one who has lived such a tragic and painful life. As Christine tells him in the ALW version, it's in his soul that the true distortion lies. (This is tough, because like so many of you, I keep wanting to say "but...") I agree that he is rather loveable in the ALW version, but then again, I don't think it could have worked any other way. They had to de-fang him quite a bit for the sake of the musical.

[Luciana]

We all have our flaws, and the depth of them just depends on our childhood envoirment. I've read a lot of phanphiction and got a pretty good grasp of the Erik in the novel from what I've heard from my friends, and I'll be able to give a better view once I've read the books, but I think I could.

Do I pity him? Yes. Do I consider him a madman? A bit. Do I think I would turn away from him simply because of his face? Absolutly not.

Do I think I could grow to love him? Yes.

He was raised in a world that showed him no compassion, no love. Can we blame him for having trouble seperating right from wrong when he was shown only wrongs? The first purity he sees is Christine.

I think that I would be able to fall in love with him. He's a passionate person with a truly good soul once you get deeper into it, at least from what I've seen (which I'll admit was not much).

[phantoms_nemo]

I bet you I could. Even though he kills people, he learnt no other way. No one show that they cared for him so he isolated himself into "madness". I dont care about looks. I would want to get to know his personality before I judge him. I would not go "hes ugly lets throw rocks at him" like many people would back then. Behind the mask, there must be something to love, a good soul after many years of distortion.

[Why So Silent]

Wow, what a great discussion! I've read through it all, and ya'll (ahem, Texan here) have great reasons on both sides.

I think that you would have to be excessively patient with Erik, and you'd probably have to treat him like a spoiled child, but I think the main fact that you'd have to overcome would be the whole "trust" issue. I mean, Erik hasn't felt love from anyone.

I'm going to base myself off of Kay (seeing as I wuv it and it's my fave version of Erik ::high fives Erik is my Hero::), so I can say that even his mother hated him (well, okay, except near that last part). You'd have to gain his trust and make him realize you wouldn't ever leave him, because if he had even the slightest bit of doubt then he'd probably use force and fear to keep you in the house by the lake.

I think if you really showed him affection you could pull it off, subdue his "violent" side...but then again, every woman wants to "change" their men, and of course, we mostly fail miserably...::sadness:: but bare with me! I'LL SUCCEDE!
Toodles
Why So Silent

[phantomphan]

I bet I could fall in love with Erik, how he really is. I fell in love with him after reading Leroux's book. And after seeing Chaney play him. I also love Susan Kay's Erik the most! I didn't even see Gerry or any stage Phantom playing Erik and I fell in love with him. I also really liked Claude Rains playing Erik, he did very good, even though the storyline and stuff was kinda off. I just have to say I will always love Erik for who he really is. ^_^

[CountessDaae]

Well, I might be the odd one out. lol. I believe I could fall in love with Erik. Even if he was a mass murder. In the movies and books, the darkness surrounding him draws me more towards him. I think once he had someone who loved him for who he is and not see the deformity of his face, he would calm down. The love i would have would not be out of pity. It would just happen. My mom, lil sis, and I have these discussion, about who would we pick, Raoul or the Phantom. They say Raoul. Sorry, I choose the Phantom. Someone would not kill another, if they truely did not love them. Erik's love for Christine was because she listened and took his music and let it soar to new heights, beyond the Opera house walls. I would stand beside Erik, because he was there, even when Raoul wasn't.

[toxic fruit]

No, I don't believe I could love him. Even if he were the hot one. And I might want to love him when I'm all wrapped up in his arms...but I just wouldn't be able to escape the fact that he kills. I think I'd try to find another Opera House where there aren't murderers or try and get this one kicked out...which in Point of No Return Christine is trying to help Raoul do.

[Christine Daaé]

I don't know whether my love for Erik is, or could be, out of pity or genuine romantic or platonic feelings. I know that, faced with a real-life Erik, I could love him. I just don't know how.

Let's face it, people: he kills. He steals. He lies. He kidnaps. He threatens to blow up buildings. He's a bit like the modern-day terrorist. Would you fall in love with a terrorist if he fell in love with you?

~ Zelda

[Night feather]

Yeah my thought exactly, I could easily imagine myself beign drawn to him like Christine does, but he is really a tortured soul with plentu of deamons and not much knowledge about how you act.

So as m´ch as I really hate to say it, I would probably go with Raoul, or otherwise I would have given up fighting long before, and let Erik take over...

Dunno, it's a difficult question, the hopeless romantic part of me says "YOU'D CHOSE ERIK!" while the more practical side says "COME ON, AS IF!"

[sunshine]

I truly think that I could love Erik ( Leroux version ) I realy dont like how they had the movie phantom look hot. Even though in the movie they showed that his face was difigured he still was incredibly hot. In the book by Leroux he was described to look much more like the black and white movie version of the phantom. I think that Lerouxs Erik has much more good outweighing the bad, If the absence of love made him the way he is then I think the cure for it would be love. I think that if someone did love him and he understood that they truly did that he would no longer feel the need to be angry and murder people. I must be insane but I think I could truly love the real Erik depicted in Lerouxs phantom. :D I dont pretend to think that it would ever be easy to love Erik but I would strive to help him cure himself of the deep despair he feels. Besides when you fall in love I dont think it matters who they are as long as you love each other ( sorry hopeless romantic )

[Lise]

You're not insane. I feel the same way. If an absence of love made him that way, then maybe someone loving him would change him. It might be a slow, slow process, but I think I would be able to love him, even though it might be incredibly hard.

[Christine Daaé]

It all sounds terribly romantic -- that we can change someone through love -- but in reality, it's never like that. I tried to change other people through my love and acceptance, but it can't and doesn't happen.

If you think that while living in the realm of the book, you could do it, that's wonderful. The reality, though, is that no one can change another person by simply caring about them and accepting them. Try it in real life, and you're going to get burned.

So if you live within the Leroux book realm and you think you could change him and love him for who he is, more power to you. However, if Erik were a real person as Leroux portrayed him, he could not be changed by love alone, especially after all those years of hurt and betrayal. It just doesn't happen, and you can ask me and anyone else who's tried.

But it's a nice notion, isn't it? I realize that many of us are compassionate people, and that's wonderful. Just take my advice, and don't think you can do this in real life. You will get hurt.

~ Zelda

[ErikxisxmyxAngel]

i think that i really could fall in love with Erik because i would want to do whatever i can to help him and also i love to live life on the dangorouse (sp?) side so my truthful answer is yes i could...

[Lia Lecordier]

I don't know really. I definately feel limited sympathy for Leroux's Erik, It's rather hard not to, the way he behaves and all. But I think, were you truly faced with him, a girl couldn't possibly love him like that, especially with the fact that he's a murderous raving lunatic.

[Raptured Night]

This is a discussion I have actually been in before with another POTO fan. She had watched the movie production with Gerard Butler and within the week was declaring her everlasting love for Erik the character, even though her attraction was to Gerard the actor. Anyway long story short we ended up in a discussion about the character, and if we could truely love him.

There are many things to take into consideration. Of course the main one being his mental stability. It has been said before, Erik is without a question a man with many demons of the mind. He suffers not only from physical abuse, but neglect the worse form of child abuse. He demonstrates child-like tendencies in Leroux' depiction, and even the movie. He as many stated is a killer, and in my opinion unstable. I agree with Christine Daae on this point. I do not believe that love alone would change all those years of mental and physical abuse.

He is a very troubled man, and nothing short of an incredible amount of paitence. And psychological know how could help him. I myself am one who has witnessed the volitile nature of someone like this. My father being one of these men. (One of the main reasons I am studying psychology.)

But even having taken these aspects into consideration, and believing a person could in fact love him, there is the second issue one must consider.

His deformity, and I agree the description of the deformity in the book is far worse than the rash/burn-like deformity Gerry sports. Believe it or not but I have actually seen people with facial disorders such as his. Consider the people with clipped lips, or a split palate, and even further people born without a nose. It has actually happened before, of course with todays modern technology we can reconstruct the face. But even so the deformity while not as attractive as Gerry with the burn, is something a person could live with if they truely love the person behind it.

And then there is the third issue to consider, the main one for myself. The degree of emotion you actually feel towards him in general. It's easy for lust, even pity to be confused as love if you can not differentiate. There is also many different types and degrees of love. I have never experianced love for another man. But I do admit to being attracted to Erik. (Not the Gerard Butler version, even if he is hot, but Erik the character.)

I have had a fasination for him since I was ten and first read Phantom Of The Opera. (Gaston Leroux' version.) And as I grew older and re-read the book fasination bloomed into physical attraction. I believe that given the time, and understanding I could love Erik. But it would require time, just as it would require time for him to gain both trust, and stability. Even then there are trials. For one he is a wanted murderer, and terribly reclusive in nature. He would not want to venture out into the world as most. (Fortunately I am highly anti-social, so I could learn to cope.)

Love is never easy, but with him it would be even more difficult. And I don't believe he would ever truely change, just mellow out some. Deformity and mental instability the saying "Take me as I am." would best befit him. Even so, dealing with people like him I think yes, I could love him eventually.

[AAW0487]

You made some really good points there. Hm...well I have thought about being in Christine's place and having to decide whether or not to really truly love Erik. Yes...I love Gerard Butler, but his deformity was no where near what has been described in Leroux's book. Honeslty I would have to get to know him first. I would have to know his personality, faults...like killing people, the good things...like his beautiful voice. I can't really deicide. In spite of all his problems Erik would have lived a totally different life probably if someone had been able to love him in the right way. I am at the moment close to the end of Susan Kay's book and I feel that he was never properly loved by anyone. Even those who did love him didnt tell him when they needed to. It's really hard for me to decide so im just going to say maybe for now.

I will proceed to be amazed by Erik and all his mysterious ways. And continue to read the many books about him.

[ForbiddenRomance]

I think I would be able to love him...if I could get past the murdering..I mean he has a deformatity...so what I don't need to be shallow....The murdering thing is a differnt story...

[doristelford]

To me Eriks deformity wouldnt make any difference at all. If you love someone you love them for what and who they are, not what they look like. But the fact of the murders is what bothers me, if I fell in love with Erik I still couldnt go off with him as I would be thinking all the time I would be next on the list to be killed if I stepped out of line in his eyes. To me its quite likely Erik could kill someone even if he loved them if he let his temper flare, and from his past he hasnt got any control over it at all.

[Melody0798]

The deformity woudln't bother me, that's not it, but with him being so... unstable, that could be difficult. I think that if I were strong enough to get through everything I would be able to love him, because my love for music is so strong. I would like to say that I could love him, but in reality, I'm not so sure...

[northangel27]

I could and do love Erik, but in saying that I have to also say that I could not have stayed with him. I believe that you can love a person and still choose to not be in a romantic relationship with them. I mean, my god, he could have killed Christine at the slightest whim. As romantic as it is to think that he would not harm her if he loved her, that is not necessarily true at all.

I think that Madame Giry's relationship with him in ALW's play was more the kind of relationship I would seek to have with him. You love him at a level that causes you constant pain (it is of course only my personal opinion that she was in love with him), but you are wise enough to keep your distance. You check in on him regularly, do small favors for him and do your best to protect him from the prying eyes of the outside world, but you don't dare enter into anything more if you have any sense of self-preservation at all.

[masquerading rose]

Its not the deformity that bothers me... Its the murders, and abductions and such that does. If I were Christine, I would drag him *per haps litterally* into church and FORCE him to go to confession. I know, it wouldn't work, but its worht a shot...

I completly agree with Zelda on this one. I could not and WOULD not love Erik. Be kind, yes, pity him, yes, but not MARRY him!!

[Taka]

Well, I've put up with murderers before, and all the people who I fall in love with are ugly as sin. So, in short, I could probably live with him and love him.


But I don't love him because he's "hot". I love him because of his inner beauty.

[Angelus]

Speaking sensibly - no. Frankly, he'd scare the hell out of me.

Leroux's Erik is not the muscular god that Gerik is. He bears a striking resemblance to a corpse and smells like one too. Literally. None of us really know what such a deformity is like - we automatically think of the facepaint of ALW's Erik and Gerik. I don't want to sound so awfully shallow, but I wouldn't have wanted to live with a walking skeleton for the rest of my life, unless he was also a wonderful, loving, mentally stable person.

Unfortunately, Erik is not wonderful, loving (in the accepted sense of the word) or mentally stable. Kay states that he has a temperamental personality and is prone to fits of violent rage. I would never be able to live knowing that my boyfriend/husband could snap my neck at any moment.

Also, Erik is obsessive, suspicious of the entire human race, and displays a macabre liking for torture. True, after his days in Persia, he stopped killing random people, but look at his torture chamber. Does it kill swiftly and with minimal pain? No. The victim has to suffer so much in the sweltering heat that they eventually end their own life by hanging. And to top it all off, Erik can watch them if he wants to.

Although Erik has a deep, infintely intricate character that I love to analyse, I wouldn't be able to love him, or perhaps I'm just not the right person. His soul is twisted and deformed almost beyond repair, and I must confess that I lack the strength and courage to put him back together.

[Taka]

Yeah, I guess you're right. Man, what was I smoking?!

[Victoria]

Wow this is deep...maybe too deep for a 13 ear old.

First I'd like to say that I have loved Erik because he was so hot or whatever.

If I had just met the Leroux Erik...then no I probably wouldn't love him, but I would not do what Christine did at all. I wouldn't minipulate him or use him in any anyway. I'd try to love him, as Taka said, for his inner beauty, and maybe try to help him in some way.

Again this is a very deep topic...

[Eriss Haughten]

I think that the only reason Erik is as he is is because of the wayother people have treated him. I would love to marry him because, in the way that he treats Christine, we see that he truly can love and for that reason he is perfectly normal. I would not be afraid that he would hurt me. The only reason that he commmited all those murders is because he was filled with such a mad love. If that need was fullfilld, he would become a kind sedamental person as he truely is in his soul.

[masquerading rose]

Perfectly normal? Does a normal man pretend to be an angel to win the heart of a woman who is over three decades younger than him? Playing with the fact that her father promised an angel, he took advantage of her. Lying and not even revealing his face to her, he tried to kill the only man who truly loved her for more than her voice.
And what inner beauty are you guys talking about? Erik, sure maybe had inner beauty one time in his life, but his life was contorted and manipulated by rejection, loathing, rape, drugs, death. A “normal” person would have continued to live their live. A person with “inner beauty” would not take out his revenge by killing people, stalking an innocent girl and trying to kill the man she loved.
Loz (Angelus) makes a good point. Erik is unpredictable. I’m sick and tired of seeing posts of “I could change Erik” or “Erik could be good if he really tried”. The thing is, Erik is too far gone for anyone to “fix” him. Christine couldn’t even do that. She may have made a big impact on his life, but never changed a thing about his personality.
You see, refuse Erik once and he might hurt you. If you survive the first time, he might do worse the second time.
I’m not saying that I hate Erik. That isn’t the case at all. He is actually one of my favorite characters in all of classic literature, but I’m not in love with him. I would never want to marry him, a man like him. Heck, I wouldn’t even want befriend him. I would actually avoid him to the best of my ability. But I don’t hate him.

[marissamayhem]

I think that the only reason Erik is as he is is because of the wayother people have treated him. I would love to marry him because, in the way that he treats Christine, we see that he truly can love and for that reason he is perfectly normal. I would not be afraid that he would hurt me. The only reason that he commmited all those murders is because he was filled with such a mad love. If that need was fullfilld, he would become a kind sedamental person as he truely is in his soul.

While I do agree with you that Erik is the way he is because of the way he was treated by other people, I can't agree with you on anything else.

Erik is psychologically disturbed. That isn't just going to go away because someone loves him. He is SCARRED for life. He was too far deep into his own hell that I don't think anything would've gotten him out. If I was with someone like him, I would be VERY afraid that he would hurt me. He could snap at any moment. Even with someones love and affection, old habits don't just die. Now I'm not someone who thinks that a girl should run far, far away from Erik, being is that I think there are shades of gray in everything. How do we really know if he would hurt us? He came very close to seriously hurting Christine but that was because she took his mask off and he was so consumed in the fact that Christine would never love him because she had seen his face. Are we psychologists? Can we truly tell or not if Erik won't be change for the better if he just has someone who loves him?

But I'm not one of those girls that runs around saying that Erik is "misunderstood" and that he's just a sweet, misguided guy. I know that he has killed. I know that he's violent. I know that he's got probably THE biggest anger issue ever. So I'm not blind to who Erik is. Anyone who thinks Erik is anything other than what I just stated is thinking up a "perfect" Erik for themselves instead of acknowledging him for who he is.

To anyone that says they COULD love Erik, let me ask you this. Would you be able to wake up and show TRUE relationship affection for a man that looked like our Erik? I'm not talking Gerry-sunburn face. I mean true Leroux Erik. His face looks like a corpse. His lips are large and misshapen. His eyes are uneven and sunken in. He has LITERALLY no nose. Imagine that in your mind. Could you love him? And I don't mean feelings of love. I mean physical love. Please think about it before you respond. Imagine it.

I really don't think anyone could. As superficial as that sounds, I just don't. It certainly couldn't be a young teenager like Christine. It's just the way it is. We can say how much we "love" Erik and want to change him but how many of us REALLY do?

[masquerading rose]

Thank you, Marissa for agreeing with me, and making the point clearer than I could.

Yes, Erik is very corpse-like. And it's not just one side of his face. No, it covers his entire face.

Erik reminds me of a modern day internet stalker. He hid himself easily from Christine, was much older than Christine and was too mysterious to be good. For Christine, he showed up in her mirror, but imagine a man like erik showing up on your computer screen. You think you love him, until he hurts you, you see him, and he hurts those you love. Erik give Christine a choice; I kill you're lover or I kill everyone in opera house. Imagine being faced with a similar situation. What would you do then? Would you still love him? There are so many similarities and I think people only see what they want to see in Erik. One of the reasons they love him is because the story lines are seen from Erik's eyes, but are written in third person. Erik feels pity for himself, making the audiance pity him. Erik is the protagonist, automatically making us love him. Erik hates Raoul, therefore, the audiance hates Raoul. You have to look beyond all of this and see that Raoul isn't such a bad guy. Erik isn't a dashing hero. You can't change Erik and there is only a certain amount of pity you can feel towards him.

[ChristineJ16]

This also reminds me of Bram Stoker's Dracula. The way he is written in the novel is no where near as good looking as Hollywood makes him out to be. That's what Gaston Leroux has done, the real Erik, as he was originally written, was indeed quite scary. A living corpse! I heard rumors where a movie based off of the Gaston Leroux is to be made. Not sure if it's true or not, but it would be very interesting if ever they decide to do that. Show how Erik was really like, that would creep out quite a lot of people.

About the question, "Can I really love Erik, as in Leroux's Erik?" Hard to say and it's not because he's corpse/skeleton like. I like Jack Skellington from Nightmare Before Christmas, not because of how he looks, but his whole personality. Erik from Leroux is darn right scary, it goes way beyond his appearance. I'd be afraid since he's known to go from just fine in one moment and then snap the next. I do feel sorry for him, but I'd actually be afraid as well. Afraid of what he might do whenever he gets mad. I'm also thinking of what Marissa said about giving Erik physical love, is that even possible? Oh, goodness.....now there's something to ponder about.......It's one thing to feel sorry for someone like Erik and maybe even feel love of some kind, platonic love that is, but to go any further than that? Romantic, physical love for someone who is corpse-like? I don't know, I just don't know....

[Hidden Away]

when a mod sees this. please just delete it :D

[Hidden Away]

and this. too *doesn't know how it double posted* *kicks self*

[Phantom's_last_rose]

I've read Leroux's book and am reading it again and I think I could Love him. I mean as long as you stay away from his mask he is pretty nice. I mean like the only time he was crule to Christine was when she removed his mask. So honestly if you stay away from the mask there wouldn't be all that much to worry about. And I've grown quite found of novel Erik even with his deformity. Corpses aren't all that bad looking. ;). And you just need to show him some love. The whole world has shunned him and all he wants is acceptance. His mother wouldn't even kiss him. So I think if the world had been more accepting in the first place that chandilear wouldn't have fallen. So to sum it up I'd be able to love him as long as I stayed AWAY from the mask, showed him some human kindness, and never ever think of doing anything to upset him.

[Madame le Courayer]

Can we really love Erik? Well, I think it depends on who you are. Yes, we love the character of Erik because if not for him, no POTO, no reason for this forum right?
But if Erik had been a real man, could he have been loved by anyone? I think the answer lies, again, with who you are, what sort of person you are, what type of character you have.
I did a lot of work in halfway houses, institutions, and mental hospitals and saw some of the most touching and undying love you will ever see between spouses, between parents and children. They just wouldn't give up, no matter how cruel, how violent, how bad their loved one got. And sometimes I saw just the opposite: wives walk out and never look back, parents wash their hands of a child, couples torn apart because one of them simply couldn't take it anymore.
I'm not saying one set of these folks were right and the other wrong. They did what was right for them. As for the ones who stayed, I think it took an exceptionally strong character and a deep love to enable them to do so.
I think to love someone who was as emotionally scarred and damaged as Erik (and I shudder to think that there are such people) would take an extremely high measure of courage, strength and hope not everyone has available to them.
So, yes, that sort of person can love Erik. A mentor of mine whom I deeply love and respect once told me that the people who need love the most are the ones who deserve it the least. That's pretty profound stuff.

[Phantom's_last_rose]

I agree with Hannah. It all depends on who you are and what you can handle. Also it kinda depends on your curiosity. As the saying goes curiosity killed the cat and it would probably kill you too with Erik 'cause if you were to curios and didn't know what was under the mask you would take it off (as Christine did) and then Erik would not be to happy with you.

[The Countess]

Lizzy, I'm goign to have to disagree with your comment two posts above mine.

Leroux!Erik nice? You must jest. By no means was he 'nice' even while he was masked. He killed people while masked. He tortured Raoul and Nadir while masked. He did most of the things he did with his mask on. It would have made such a difference if he was unmasked anyway.

He was crazed and deranged. As you said he was abused severly, and there would be no real way for him to completly recover, not with the time he had left on earth. Remember, he was practically on his death bed by the end of the novel.

I'm not sure how you think that a death's head isn't frightening or even gruesome. Can you even imagine a walking, talking skelaton? *shudder* What ever your opinion is though...

All in all, Erik is not one of the best guys. I love him as a phan girl, but nothing more. I don't think that anyone, not anyone in this day and age really, could satisfy the love he desired which was a complex thing.

[Phantom's_last_rose]

I ment he was more plestant to Christine not anyone eles.


Sorry that could have been spam. SPAM MUST DIE NOW!!!

[The Countess]

Well, he did technically lie to, kidnap, and nearly killed her in various occasiouns. That's not really nice either.

Yes, spam must be exacuted! French sword style *slice*

[Madame le Courayer]

No, Erik was not a nice person....neither are half of the people I have known in my short lifetime (yes HALF) but not-so-nice and even dowright nasty people can be loved. Doesn't make it right...or wrong for that matter. My view of it has always been you must be strong enough to what's right for you and if deep down you really love someone, then in your eyes (and perhaps your eyes only) they are lovable. I speak from personal experience and not simply passion for this character.
As for Erik and his short time he had left, perhaps that's what makes him, in my mind, a possible candidate for Christine's love and also such a tragedy that he never got it.
Speaking of tragedy, perhaps it is one that I am such an idealist! :rolleyes:

[death_shadows]

to be honest i am pretty sure that i could love erik. yes he may have been dangerous, but i think if i loved sumone enough i could care less if he had to fight his demons, and i would be patient and try to help him fight them. and the killing thing well to be honest i actually found it romantic, the fact that he was so madly in love and willing to kill to have the girl he loved....well it seems romantic to me. and for the men who wished to expose erik, i cant blame him if he would kill someone who would try to. back then ppl would see his disfigurement and scream and call him a monster and try to kill him themselves, its either u live or u are exposed and killed....i know erik may have a temper, but i think i would too if i was shunned and abandon by the rest of man kind. if i had to live in hiding....well i'd have a bit of a temper myself. i actually fell in love with gastons erik the sec i read the book. and btw he didnt think he was holding her agianst her will, she came back to him did she not? although it may have been pity that lead her 2. and i also think that erik was funny at times, what with messing with the mangers minds and some of the things he did, i found myself laughing at some of things he did, and its nice for a man to make u laugh. not only all of that but if u truely love someone then even if its in only ur eyes, u find them loveable despite their flaws.
to make it simple i have spent time thinking about whether i could really love the real phantom, and i know for a fact that i could. and i could care less if he looks like a corpse or not.

[Trix]

Oh man...
This is a really heavy question.
I haven't read Leroux yet (my copy is en route currently :D) but from all my predispositions of the Erik I know from ALW, and from what I know from Leroux, I can say that Erik is someone I might not LOVE, so much as relate to.

I hate to admit it, but I have a real sense of self loathing under the surface. I act very confident and sure of myself, but I've done so many dodgy, hurtful things to myself and others, I can't help but feel similar to Erik. I haven't murdered or tortured or stalked someone, but I have manipulated people often to my advantage, just for the sake of it. I HAVE seriously considered killing someone (Long story, but in my mind justified) I've drank to the point of alcohol poisoning. I've stolen, I've done drugs, I smoke, I lie.
I was sent to a psychologist for the first time when I was 7. Put on antidepressants at 9, and physically abused by my Mom till I was 10, then put in psych again when I was 10-11. I've always been the weird kid. Always really sensitive as a child, and now really stoic and blank as an almost adult. I have a hard time relating and connecting and trusting people since most of my childhood I WAS accordingly treated as the "weird kid"
I'm not saying my life is bad or horrible or anything: I have quite a good life.
Lots of people that care about me and love me and such.

Erik doesn't have that, and he never did.
And I know that, and acknowledge it.
I think things'd be so much different for him if people just knew how different he could have been if he had been shown some love and compassion: He's the angry, violent person he is because of the lack of love in his entire life.

I'm drawn to people with emotional instabilities like this, and I'm drawn to the other "weird kids" like Erik. And I know full well that I'm just as yucky on the inside as he is on the outside. I have also had a long-time fixation with zombies, so the walking corpse thing doesn't bother me too much.

I like to think I'm an open minded and compassionate enough person, that I could indeed love Erik.

[death_shadows]

Oh man...
This is a really heavy question.
I haven't read Leroux yet (my copy is en route currently :D) but from all my predispositions of the Erik I know from ALW, and from what I know from Leroux, I can say that Erik is someone I might not LOVE, so much as relate to.

I hate to admit it, but I have a real sense of self loathing under the surface. I act very confident and sure of myself, but I've done so many dodgy, hurtful things to myself and others, I can't help but feel similar to Erik. I haven't murdered or tortured or stalked someone, but I have manipulated people often to my advantage, just for the sake of it. I HAVE seriously considered killing someone (Long story, but in my mind justified) I've drank to the point of alcohol poisoning. I've stolen, I've done drugs, I smoke, I lie.
I was sent to a psychologist for the first time when I was 7. Put on antidepressants at 9, and physically abused by my Mom till I was 10, then put in psych again when I was 10-11. I've always been the weird kid. Always really sensitive as a child, and now really stoic and blank as an almost adult. I have a hard time relating and connecting and trusting people since most of my childhood I WAS accordingly treated as the "weird kid"
I'm not saying my life is bad or horrible or anything: I have quite a good life.
Lots of people that care about me and love me and such.

Erik doesn't have that, and he never did.
And I know that, and acknowledge it.
I think things'd be so much different for him if people just knew how different he could have been if he had been shown some love and compassion: He's the angry, violent person he is because of the lack of love in his entire life.

I'm drawn to people with emotional instabilities like this, and I'm drawn to the other "weird kids" like Erik. And I know full well that I'm just as yucky on the inside as he is on the outside. I have also had a long-time fixation with zombies, so the walking corpse thing doesn't bother me too much.

I like to think I'm an open minded and compassionate enough person, that I could indeed love Erik.


i understand where ur coming from there. most of my life has been filled with bad ppl doing dreadful things to me and the ppl around me. ive been through so much in my life, but it all made me who i am today. and i was lucky that i found my friend ayla....without her i would surely be dead right now. erik didnt have a friend like taht. all my life i was called the weird kid, well so was erik, accept he had no friends to help him through though times or to back him up. and i agree with u on several things btw. and also have been through a lot of the same things u mentioned...

[witch]

My train of thought make me to believe yes I could of loved him.
He's angry and hurt and alone who wouldn't want love after living that life for so long? Sure he has a few issues but who doesn't?
Everyone had part of them that they don't like I mean how many of us say something along the lines of "I hate my eyes they are to small" or "I wish I had curls instead of just straight hair?" I know I do. At lest with the phantom it's understandable why he wanted to hide it.

I think that to love him first you have to understand him.
People judge on looks it's not how it should be but sadly it's how it is being called a monster would turn any one's heart to hate, being a "Show Tool" for money and getting beaten like he did in the movie would also explain his anger.
As for loving and wanting the one girl he set everything towards I can understand why he did what he did. After all what's a life without love and wouldn't you fight to the death to keep hold of it?

Like I said before he does have issues and things he needs to work on but yes I do love him.

[death_shadows]

i agree with u witch

[Trix]

I find I'd rather help someone who has REAL issues than someone who just over-exagerates their mundane ones.
I've had SO many boyfriends like that and it drives me insane. "I'm getting kicked out of my house because I failed a math test and yelled at my Mom!"

SO?!

Ugh I can't handle that. But I do get something from helping people who really have been hurt, and really do suffer.
That's why I could be with Erik and feel good about it, because I'd know he really needs me.

[dreamfairy101]

In my opinion, and I'm not saying this as a naiive (sp?) phangirl, who only thinks of Erik as the Gerry version, I believe that he is misunderstood. Before you start thinking the wrong thing about my opinion, let me explain first...

First, what we all must understand, and I'm sure a fair amount of us do, is that Erik is not REAL. That being said, to fully comprehend him, you would have to think the way you do, not the way someone else does. Don't we all the think about the "if's" in stories. What if Dorothy had never left OZ in the first place? What if Cinderella and Prince Charming had become King and Queen? What if Sleeping beauty never woke up? In that sense, I'm sure all of us say in our minds, "What if Erik wasn't the bad person that he is?" or at least "What if Erik wasn't bad enough so that Christine could love him?" if it was even remotely possible. And don't we all come to a conclusion in our minds what the outcome of those "if's" could be, yet all our conclusions are different, in a sense? In my mind, the slow process of changing Erik would be complicated, but do-able. Because he had never been shown kindness in his life, he became what he is. But the reason he was never shown kindness in his life was because of his appearence, so if he was shown a speck of kindness, say going in the outside world and showing someone his face, they would immediatly cringe in fear. But just think, if he met someone in Paris, sat down and talked to them, and they got to know him, and maybe even start to befriend him, would he still be shown the same reaction if he took off his mask and showed that person what he truly was? I guess it depends on the type of person you are, but I wouldn't cringe, because I would know there was true beauty behind the mask.

In a way, if you think about it, Erik has not only a mask to hide his face, but a mask to hide his soul. In the depths of his mind, he believes that if the world saw his face, he would most definatly not be accepted. He has got it in his head that not only would they not like his appearence, but his sheer personality. Because he was shut off from the world, he is lonely, and to cure his loneliness himself, he turned to his music, and enthralled himself in his own world. His madness stems from not wanting to be interuppted in his world. Even though Christine could count as an interupption, he saw in her the star that she is, and he made her join his world. I think not only that reason, but I also think that he did it so he could be taken out of his world as well. His loneliness and his anguish had driven him over the edge, and he needed someone to help him overcome it. But because he had not been exposed to anyone's help and kindness, he did not understand that love takes time to grow, and even more time for acceptence and help to kick in. He really fell in love with Christine at first sound (I wouldn't say sight, because he really fell in love with her voice first, and her compassion), and he did not understand that Christine would need time to understand her fear of him was not because of his repulsiveness, but his need for her to love him at the moment's instance, and she was so overwelmed by it, that she truly thought him mad, which he was.

In a way, I understand Erik a lot. Loving someone is a big deal, and when your caught up in your own world, it takes a lot out of you to hault it and pay attention to them. I think a lot about fictional characters and imagine myself in their worlds. I'm so caught up with loving them, that I basically live in their worlds without acknowledging my own. Instead of being in a world of charcters, he is in a world full of music, the music he writes. His music is his one beauty, to Christine, but where does it all come from? It all comes from his mind. I live in a society where people don't take abnormalness very well, and I'm one of those abnormal ones. I may not be the most ugly person in the world on the outside, but to everyone else, I seem ugly to them when I slowly peel away my barrier that keeps people out of my mind, weird, if you must. His barrier is his mask, and once its off, people shy from him, as they do me. I'm not preppie, or sporty. I listen to Japanese music and I shop at Wal-mart for clothes, while most people around me go to Abercrombie or Hollister, and listen to rap and pop music. My mind is closed off to most people. I only let my family in, and my only friend, my best at that. Christine tries to accept Erik, but because of his dark past, he seems to not let her. He thinks that because so many other people have looked apon him in disgust, she will too. I know this because I'm very anti-social in real life (not on the internet!), and I've shown people what I'm really like, and I don't do that anymore, because I know that I'll get hurt in the end.

To the issue about Erik killing people, I think that is a horrible crime, but in his mind it is justifed. His anger and rage drives him to insantiy, so he may or may not be thinking clearly about what he is doing. I think if he really sat down and thought about his actions, no, he would not completely change them, but he would have a better understanding of himself. The reasons people shuned him throughout his life are varied, but one of the main reasons is that he kills. Of course people are going to be afraid of that, I mean, I would if I didn't know who he really was on the inside. But how can you fear someone who you love, or who you understand?

His disfigurment wouldn't bother me much. I mean, it might gross me out a bit, but not enough that would truly bother me.

Could I love Erik? Yes I could. I could because I could understand him. I understand what he's been through. Even though I've never killed anyone, his motives for it are not from the pleasure of killing, in my mind, but from the fear he has that someone will puncture into the world he so desperately loves. Erik is afraid that someone could find his vulnerablities, and use them against him. I'm the same exact way. I've never killed anyone though!

But the question everyone sould be asking about this subject, is that could people in general love him? Not the whole of society, no. But people feel differently about different things. Some people are disgusted by people who are different. Others accept it. But in the whole, the way society is now, even the way it was back then, it would be hard to truly love Erik to the fullest.

But all of this is just an opinon though! I love Erik a whole lot, so this is just coming from my mind, not the minds of everyone elses!

I'm also basing this all off of ALW's and Leroux's versions. I've never read Kay's Phantom, but I'm going to soon.

[angelgirl]

First off, to answer the question. No probably not. I'd probably be able to look past his face to see the inner beauty, but I probably wouldn't be able to get past the fact that he is a murder and all.

The romantic side of me is screaming "YES, YOU WOULD,":grnsmile: while the sensible side is screaming, "NO WAY IN HECK!":mad:
A.G.

[darcimkire]

of course.. everyone deserves to be loved.. erik is misunderstood, he may have committed the gravest sin, but it would be because he was not loved, he was abused...

he knows only one thing to at least reward himself what he thinks he deserves, that is to get it by force... but in the end he realised it would do him no good, so he relinquished all of it, he relinquished christine

[Madame le Courayer]

of course.. everyone deserves to be loved.. erik is misunderstood, he may have committed the gravest sin, but it would be because he was not loved, he was abused...

Of course that is true. Anyone here ever read the story of John Merrick, also known as the Elephant Man? Not to take the focus too much off of Erik but in real life Merrick was monstrously deformed, more so even than Leroux's Erik. Yet he had the one thing that Leroux's fictional character did not...someone who showed him love and affection early in his life (his mother) and someone who showed him dignity and respect in his adult life (Dr. Frederick Treves) and the result was that despite his terrible deformity he was a well-adjusted and as personable a human being as ever there was.
Sorry to divert you from Erik but my point is that with love and respect the most hideously deformed person can thrive mentally and emotionally. So yes, Erik can be loved...but not by the those whose standard of beauty is the white knight with flowing blond curls! :biglaugh:
Seriously, though, love and affection is what keeps the savage beast away. It keeps us sane.

[darcimkire]

Of course that is true. Anyone here ever read the story of John Merrick, also known as the Elephant Man? Not to take the focus too much off of Erik but in real life Merrick was monstrously deformed, more so even than Leroux's Erik. Yet he had the one thing that Leroux's fictional character did not...someone who showed him love and affection early in his life (his mother) and someone who showed him dignity and respect in his adult life (Dr. Frederick Treves) and the result was that despite his terrible deformity he was a well-adjusted and as personable a human being as ever there was.
Sorry to divert you from Erik but my point is that with love and respect the most hideously deformed person can thrive mentally and emotionally. So yes, Erik can be loved...but not by the those whose standard of beauty is the white knight with flowing blond curls! :biglaugh:
Seriously, though, love and affection is what keeps the savage beast away. It keeps us sane.

i heard about the elephant man, there's a movie about that right?
also, i also heard that the make up artists of MC said that he was inspired by the elephant man in making the hideous make-up of the phantom stage version...

[Madame le Courayer]

i heard about the elephant man, there's a movie about that right?
also, i also heard that the make up artists of MC said that he was inspired by the elephant man in making the hideous make-up of the phantom stage version...

You are correct on both counts. :)

[dreamfairy101]

I'm currently reading Kay's Phantom, and I still have to stick to my original post. Erik is just completely misunderstood. In his heart all he wants to be is good, but he doesn't know how, because you learn virtue from being taught, or so I've heard, and if no one was there to teach, him, or just didn't try, such as his mother didn't in Kay's version, where would he find out what it truly is?

[The Countess]

*steams and simmers down* I beg to diffter. A misunderstood would be a great, great understatment for Gaston Leroux's novel. You say that he didn't exsist, which is true, but (I'm sad this thousands of times) if he was, he would be some Scottish guy with a sunburn. A would be a corspe. A wrenching, mulatated, hideous corspe. Can you really look by that? Honestly? Could you really love a face like that? I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just pratical. It would be a differnet case if Erik was indeed a good person, but that isn't the case. He was utterly insane and prone to insane, ravving behavior. This is most likely because of his appearance but no one the less he is what he is. He's never had any intention of turning around his life for the better. After all, he killed, kidnapped, stole, blackmailed, and I could go on but none of these things show any indication of how he wanted to turn his life around. Erik honestly didn't know any better, but that's no excuse and definitly not a misunderstanding on his part.

I like Erik and all but I stand by my fact that he is what he is, a monster. A monster wanting to be normal, but that is unattainable.

[dreamfairy101]

But I'm not a very practical person. I never have been. His face would be a dreadful thing to look at, I'm not denying it, but the way that I am would probably see past that. I wasn't even talking about Gerry's version at all. I was actually talking about Leroux's.

But what I was really talking about was people in general. Of course people couldn't love him. In the sense of the word, he is a freak and a monster. But if I could love him, that would be my opinion. In my mind, I wouldn't care if he was crazy. I'm actually pretty crazy myself. I think I have depression also, so that could explain some of it. He never did have the intention of changing, and I know that, but I'm talking about the heart that's really inside him, even if darkness over shrouds it. I'm talking Kay's Phantom now, since I'm almost through with it. It's not a physical thing with him to me, or because of the things he does. I don't judge a person just on their actions. I'll admit, it plays a great deal in my accquistions, but emotion and feelings are a big part of my life, and it would seem that way in his as well.

[The Countess]

What I don't understand is what could anyone see past? What are his reedeeming qualities? He has none, correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't take you as an insane person, not on the level Erik was at in the novel. He talked to himself in 3rd person, spoke in tongues, and switched moods dangerously. He had a great genious but it was far too umimaginable to conperhend for any mortal most likely.

His feelings and emotions were obsessive and even hazzardious to other persons. Erik had this undying love for Chrisitne that nearly cost many people their lives (ergo: the scorpian and the grasshopper). I just don't see how any one who's so careless to get what they want could be attractive in any way or manner (not just physically).

[dreamfairy101]

I didn't say I was insane, just that I have a warped way of thinking over normal people. Not nearly on Erik's level, though, of course not. No one could be as insane as him. I take love very seriously, though, obsession or not. Really, you'd have to know me in real life to understand. I sometimes talk to myself in third person.

I can think of a few reedeeming qualities of his. He is very passionate about his music. Maybe a little too obsessive, but a genius of his level could be accountable for that. I fell that he just feels utterly and completely alone, and that's what resorts him to such drastic measures so that he's not alone, example, as you said, the scorpion and the grasshopper. It was very drastic, but his mind could be so warped that he could even think straight, even though he is capable of it.

The aloneness that he feels, I can relate to it. Maybe not so much as his aloneness, for I don't look like a living corpse, so I was never shunned like he was, but I could imagin what it must feel like. I would be 100% insane too, if I was him.

I have to go to be now, so I can reply to your next post tomorrow.

[The Countess]

I suppose I would ahve to know you in real life to actually precieve you as an individual, but I'm speaking more generally.

I can understand him being alone, but in truth I don't think that he would want to anything but that. I mean, isn't that why he went underground in the first place? Ture, he was willing to change for Chrisinte for he was obsessed with her but can you honestly think that he could become normal or even socially acceptable (or social for that matter)?

Erik wanted to have a normal life with Christine, true, but what is his normal? I don't think that he would have taken her to a popualted town where they could go out in public together. What he most liely would have done is take her to a distant cottage of some sort and pretend everything was normal, just as he did in his lair. I can't see how it's possiable to have normal, healthy relationship with anyone. How could you really see past that?

[dreamfairy101]

It's just, the person I love is a lot like Erik. Not a pycho killer, or a sadistic madman, but a very emotional person. He has depression, and likes to be alone a lot. He is very compassionate about things, such as his pictures (he's a photographer.) He also writes music, and likes to keep to himself a lot. He's never really had enough experience with people, and doesn't react well to social situations. I love him very much, and I try to understand him. He keeps a lot of things hidden from me, but I'm okay with that. He's not crazy, or insane, but he gets mad very easily, especially when its about me. He's told me he's obsessed with me, and I'm not afraid of that. Maybe I'm obsessed with him, but I couldn't live without him.

I think I react to Erik the way I react to him. I am patient with him when he has a tantrum, and help him when he needs it. I comfort him, and he comforts me. Its just the vibe I get from Erik that reminds me of him, that's all. I know my love enough to know that he would do anything to keep me with him, and that he would protect me no matter what, but he would also never live without me, just as Erik threatens to turn the grasshopper and kill them both.

The people in generel wouldn't accept Erik into society, just as they don't my love. People think he's weird because he's albino, and never talks to anyone.

I'm sorry if I'm going too personal, but that's just what I feel.

[The Countess]

The person you're talking about does seem to represent a milder version of Erik. I can see where you're coming from now a little. I'm just a little sick of the phan girls who say Erik truely has a heart of gold when he most certainly does not. It's debatable, but I don't think I have too much to say on the matter...for now.

I must say this has been one of the most heated debates I've been in. You and I, Hana, would make excellant lawyers :P

[dreamfairy101]

Thanks! I'd rather be a writer though.

I think I'm in this debating mood because I just did a debate in school. Actually, the topic, Can Virtue Be Taught?, really has a lot to do with Erik. We lost though, when we were both Pro and Con, so I can't really say. (We just read the Meno, from Plato's works)

I never actually said Erik had a heart of gold, I just said that there's more to his heart than meets the eye. But I have had fun debating you! I really loved it!

[The Countess]

Oh, I know you didn't, others do *growl*

Yes, I do look forward to more discussion with you later but for now let's open this thread up for other persons opinions.

[Madame le Courayer]

I hate the "heart of gold" Erik too...a couple of books (sequels) I have read cast him in that light. No, I say! If you're going to love Erik, you must love him as the mad, deformed composer that he is. One might say it would take a heart of gold to be able to love him though...
While the posession of Christine's love might have ended up curbing his more violent tendencies and wrought some peace to his existence, his nature had been honed over years and years of brutal experience and you know what they say about a leopards spots. The first time someone insulted him or Christine, well...you know what would happen to that unfortunate person.
I agree, the only future for them would have been in seclusion, away from society or, as Leroux wrote, Christine choosing her dashing suitor and leaving Erik to die a lonely man.

[Mr. Darcy]

Where you talking about me again, Hana? I hope that wasn't me you were talking about... Er, I also hope that you don't have some other guy in love with you who has depression, but I guess only you know.

On the subject, I wouldn't love Erik, because I'm male, and I'm not gay, or bi, or anything in between, but I also agree with Hana when she says he's a lot like me. I can relate to him very easily, and somehow, I think we could get a little along. Maybe not with his killing people, no. But we are very similar. The world as a whole could love him, heavens, no. But I could relate to him well. It's just hard to explain with me, I guess. You'd have to know me.

[Hidden Away]

*questions heart of gold saying and wonders where it came from*

Well, I guess that my POV of Phantom was completely obscured since I actually found out about Phantom through Piano lessons and this stupid stupid phan phics...thing on quizilla. I hate it now and I don't know how it launched me to here, but I'm happy it did. I would have been a sick puppy for quite a while of not. *embraces the truth of Susan Kay and Gaston Leroux*

Back to the subject...I believe you can love him as a book character (because you do grow a fondness for any book character that you enjoyed) and probably a very distance kind of love that's completely platonic..maybe the better word is admiration...ermm, actually scratch that.

For me, it's hard to put into words. You can love him, but then again you can't.

[Madame le Courayer]

HI Yuki.
I don't believe I was refering to you (checks past posts and only sees debate between Viktoria and dreamfairy) but then it has been months since I looked in on this thread. In my post above I was actually refering to phan-phics that try to make excuses for Erik's behavior for the simple reason to get him together with Christine or OW. I hate that.
I don't think he can be changed...what I think is that if you (meaning OW characters and Christine) are going to love him then he is going to have to be loved for himself and not what he MIGHT be or COULD be. Again the "heart of gold" theory.
I'm not saying phanphics like that shouldn't be written...I am just voicing my own viewpoint on the matter. I don't personally like them...or write them.

[The Countess]

May I be the first to say...WHAT?

Dude, were you out of it when you wrote this? She never even mentioned you in her previous posts. She was talking about Erik not having a heart of gold though he is often portrayed in such a way by medicore writers and bratty phan girls (which I agree with). When did she ever give hint that you were in involved in that statement? My God...

[phantom.romance]

Hey, I know this thread has been dead for a while, but I just wanted to clear things up. Sorry if this is off-topic.

If you don't know me, I used to be dreamfairy101. So I was the one The Countess had a long, heated discussion with. I know it was all a misunderstanding, but I just wanted to make things right. Mr. Darcy, up there, was the boyfriend I was talking about in my previous posts. Sadly, he is internet challenged, so he didn't get that he had to address my username directly, not just post under somebody else. Or it could have been that Madame le Courayer posted just before he got finished typing. It was a simple accident! He addressed me in the post (he said my name, Hana). He doesn't really like Phantom anymore, so he's not coming on here. But I apologize for him.

Sorry again if this is off-topic!

[The Countess]

Ah, well that clears everything up. I just thought someone was being a cranky pranky for no good reason. Ah, the confussions of forum-life.

Thanks for clearing this up for us Hana and welcome back again!

[phantom.romance]

I'm glad it was! It took me a second to realize what was going on, so until then I was like "wtf?! She dissed my boyfriend!" But then I was like "Oh... now I get it!"

[The Countess]

Haha, then we all knew that it would've gotten quite ugly thereafter.

Okeydokey, carry on.

[death_shadows]

I hate the "heart of gold" Erik too...a couple of books (sequels) I have read cast him in that light. No, I say! If you're going to love Erik, you must love him as the mad, deformed composer that he is. One might say it would take a heart of gold to be able to love him though...
While the posession of Christine's love might have ended up curbing his more violent tendencies and wrought some peace to his existence, his nature had been honed over years and years of brutal experience and you know what they say about a leopards spots. The first time someone insulted him or Christine, well...you know what would happen to that unfortunate person.
I agree, the only future for them would have been in seclusion, away from society or, as Leroux wrote, Christine choosing her dashing suitor and leaving Erik to die a lonely man.

I do agree with what you say here. However, there are people who would take not a second of thought before choosing to stay in seclusion with someone that they love. Erik truly was a genius. He was artistic beyond all compare, and he had a brilliant mind. There are women who would kill to have someone like that, and who themselves, would not mind to be secluded.There are also women who would not mind the fact of his deformity, even though he was to look like a corpse. I know some women would probably learn his ways enough to avoid his anger. After all, Eric was only angry with Christine once she removed his mask. She could have done anything else, and it would not have angered him. After being with someone for a time, you learn what not to say to upset them, you learn what to expect, you learn their flaws and their talents, and you grow to love both. They say that love makes people blind, so I believe that it made Eric blind to Christine's flaws, yet at the same time, I believe that he did notice them, and did not care or want to care. I myself do not see why a deformity couldn't be over looked, even if they did look like that of a corpse. Especially in this day in age. With today's medical technology, Eric could look just like every other person, without his deformity. However, In that day and age they did not have the means of doing so, and it almost surprises me that Eric, with his genius, did not find a way of doing so besides hiding behind a mere cloth mask. Then again....it has taken medical scientists years of medical research and new technology to come up with what we have today. The fact that I think all these to be true, and the fact that they did not have the technology, only leads me to believe that Eric could have found a woman to love him, he only needed to find the right one.

[The Countess]

"Seclusion" is an understatement. If Erik were to stay in his abode (which he had no plans of doing so in the book), Christine/OW would never leave. Can you imagine not seeing the sun anymore? I think that it'd drive anyone with a decent mind out of it, especially if you weren't used to that way of life. True, Erik was “artistic” as you say, but I think that his other tendencies overshadow that. There are plenty of artistic, brilliant men out there that aren’t psychopaths. Erik was quite furious with Christine when she unmasked him, but what about the roof, the graveyard, and the end? He wasn’t just angry at Christine because she unmasked him, he was angry sometimes because he couldn’t control her and because she didn’t feel the way he wanted her to feel. Erik had a right to be upset because his true face was revealed to her, but the other instances are his own jealous personality. Christine can’t tip-toe around him all the time at the risk of merely upsetting him. That life is no life at all.

In the end, it wasn’t the deformity that made Christine go with Raoul. Quote from the musical, “It’s in your soul that the true distortion lies.” Don’t get me wrong, it was the main factor in the undermining of their relationship, but I think it was the fact that he was so opposite of what she expected him to be. Let’s be frank, Erik is most certainly no angel.

[Madame le Courayer]

Viktoria I quite agree with your assessment of Erik. As for the face, while the 04 movie makes Christine seem quite shallow with regards to her reaction of his face, in the book Erik was designing a prosethetic mask, one that would make him look like a "normal" man. I use this in my phanfic The Epilogue. That would have made him quite able to rejoin society if he so chose.
No, it was his mental deformity that caused his fall from grace. I'm sure Christine felt sorry for him, maybe even loved him to some extent but not enough to sacrifice her life and sanity for him.
Circling back around to the title question of this thread I reinterate: Yes, Erik CAN be loved...the question is at what cost?

[The Countess]

I reinterate: Yes, Erik CAN be loved...the question is at what cost?

Aaaaad coming back to this topic exactly one year later! I think that that statement in itself it very valid. In retch respect you can love anyone you want, but the point is that some people just are not loveable and I believe that Erik is one of those unfortunate souls. And not because of his face of course, but because of him as a person. Say that you were Christine and that you would buckle down and try to live with this man, but would you honestly be happy with a man that was more like a confused, violent child? He wouldn’t be your husband so much as your pet or vice versa. Erik is not a normal man in any respect and definitely couldn’t return the proper affections to someone living with him. This goes more for Leroux!Erik I guess, I can see having a living situation with ALW!Erik more so than the other. He’s a bit more…stable.

[Jenna1oo00]

I probably wouldn't love him. But I have a friend who was abused just as much as he. And he's not even deformed!!!! It was just because...well frankly I dont know!!! He acted the same exact way. I actually was patient, kind, caring, and loving. Eventually he changed. And yes, I DID wind up in love with him. So it's possible.

[The Countess]

I don't mean to demean your friend's situation as it is horrible to be abused in any shape or form, but I can't think that it was a severe as Erik's. Not only that, but Erik murdered people. He crashed the chandelier, stole, lied, cheated, and kidnapped all for his own gain. That goes far beyond him being a misunderstood creature. He was just a bad person overall.

[Jenna1oo00]

He was a very scary kid. Lied,cheated,hurt,several near deaths and suicides.... But anything is possible. It definatetly wasn't as bad as Eriks situation, but it came in close second. But who knows,maybe being in Eriks situation does that to a person. But honestly,Ayden's situation was VERY VERY VERY bad!!!! But sometimes a little bit of kindness can go a LONG way. (it got Ayden adopted into a loving family) But sometimes people sadly ARE born unloveable.:frown:

[xXphantomaddictedXx]

No. As I said in another thread,Erik does not know the concept of love or what it means to be loved because no one has ever shown him feelings like that.

[TheOtherErik]

Well I guess this is as good a time as any. After the movie, I will never see or read about Erik, without thinking of Gerik. That man just made a beautiful Erik, and I could love him, not just sympathy. I admit, the anger and danger just attracts me to him. He could be my Angel of Music anytime ;)
Now, Leroux's phantom. I could feel enough sympathy for what happened in his past, but I couldn't love him. I would try to be his friend, and show him compassion of which the world never showed him. I would show him that there is more in people then what he thinks. I would want to change him into someone worthy of love.