Ever wonder if it was real?

[Christine Daaé]

Hello all. How many of you believe the story is true? I do, for one. Check out www.phantomoftheopera.info/cellars to see why.

~ Zelda de le Fantome

[The Khanum]

I don't wonder... I KNOW it was real. Erik is way too incredible to be from someone's imagination.

Oh, and by the way, Zelda...your link doesn't work. I tried going there, but it said it was invalid. Post back here if you find out why, because I am quite intrigued...! :)

~The_Phantom_is_Sexy

[Christine Daaé]

Forgive me. It's www.phantomoftheopera.info/cellar.htm. Tell me what you think.

~ Zelda de le Fantome

[cinty]

I believe it. I like to believe it, though Id on't like to think of ERik's unhappiness.

[The Phantom]

I personally believe it is amazing how Gaston Leroux could create such a diverse character from the back of his mind, let alone bring forth the drama and misery that was portrayed in the novel. The detail and care of each of the characters is too real to think otherwise.

[The Phantom]

The actual Paris Opera house is almost what you would expect to see after reading the book. Under the opera in the cellars is a lake just like the Phantom's lair; vast and unwinding in which it could hide anything and everything inbetween. I've also read speculations that Gaston Leroux based characters off real life people that he knew in life.

[Forgotten Angel]

It's actually a fact that he based Erik's lair off of those cellars beneath the Paris Opera. :D We were watching a video in my French class on Paris and they mentioned that. ^_^

But yes, I'd like to think it was real, or at least based on real events. :)

[The Phantom]

Because of most people's over reactive imaginations its really fun and exciting to imagine something is real. I used to get excited that I could travel in time when I was smaller, of course its not real, but none the less it thrilled me to no end that I thought there might be a possibility.

[BlondeAngel]

I had 2 read another 3 books at the same time, but somehow i managed and, to no ones surprise, I fienished POTO first !! I like to belive that the whole thing is real, maybe I just wish it to much !! we shall never know if they really existed and what happend to raoul and christine afterwards, that beeing the best part of it ... we can just imagine what we want

[IamErik771]

Apparently, Christine was based on a real opera singer. Also, there was a case where a counterweight for the chandelier (not the chandelier itself) fell and killed someone in the audience. And there was a de Chagny family living in Paris at the time. Three of them were named Philippe, Raoul, and Eric! (Not Erik.)

In addition, Erik's deformity is apparently based on a real disease: Porphyria Cutanea Tarda, or PCT. It is basically extreme sensitivity to UV light. If someone who has this disease is exposed to sunlight, they can get permanent scarring, or worse, in just a few hours. If the condition progresses, the patient could get liver damage as well, and be as thin as a corpse all their lives. Perhaps as a baby, Erik received permanent damage from ambient sunlight coming through a window or something. In the old days, people with PCT often wore long, dark clothing, wide-brimmed hats, and masks to prevent further sun damage.

Other forms of porphyria can lead to craving for blood as well. Let's see... A person who can't go out in the sun and who likes to drink blood. What legend may this disease have contributed to?

[Christine Daaé]

Kristina Nilsson was indeed the basis for the literary Christine. However, I tend to believe that Christine Dahé, the real-life chorus girl who never did manage to become famous, was taken down for two weeks to an apartment down in the cellars by a disfigured stone mason named -- surprise -- Eric. Eric had an assymmetrical face, meaning his features were extremely lopsided. So, when he met Dahé, he bought a mask and cloak and took her to his apartment. See the link above for more info -- the second one, as the first is incorrect.

~ Zelda de le Fantôme

[Reza Khan]

I believe it entirely. After reading the book (and the afterword that went with it), I truly do believe that the story was/is real. To me, every aspect of it (the book version, not the musical one) is completely conceivable; the cellar, which we know is there, the people, who we know existed, and the very idea for the story itself.

[IamErik771]

Originally posted by Zelda de le Fantome
See the link above for more info -- the second one, as the first is incorrect.

~ Zelda de le Fantôme

The second link doesn't work either. However, I think I know the site you are talking about, as I visit there often. That is where I got my info on the real de Chagny family. Click Here (http://www.phantomoftheopera.info/history.htm) for the correct link to see the information that Leroux used to create his epic. The PCT info isn't there, though; I got that elsewhere. :) Also, check out the Essays section on that site. Those character analysis pages are extremely awesome.

[Christine Daaé]

You won't believe what I found. Go to http://www.angelofmusik.com/board/viewforum.php?f=9 -- someone's been doing research for fifteen years. She found an Eric Vachon, and the grandson of "Nadir". You won't believe this.

~ Zelda de le Fantôme

[phantomphreak]

Yeah, I read all of that a few days ago. It was so great! Hopefully the person will write more. I'm glad that someone finally decided to do something about it. I believed parts of the story before I read this. But this just confirms a lot.

[Countess Cain]

I'm actually starting to believe it, in a way. Though I do believe Leroux added his own twists, I think that he might have been inspired by something that really happened.

I also read that thing by Cecilia the other day. That was an interesting read as well... And I know I like the name 'Vachon' better than 'Destler'. XD

[Christine Daaé]

Well, to say the truth, I hardly believe what Cecilia wrote down anymore. It just doesn't seem genuine to me. At all.

First of all, why are all these people suddenly coming out of the woodwork, just for her, who's not an actual historian or professional researcher? Because she's pretty? Why is everything suddenly falling into place? Are these people lying to her, or is she taking what other people have discovered? Erik's last name being "Vachon" is nothing new -- it's been discovered before.

Second, it was Christine Dahé whom he loved, nobody named Catherine.

Third, the skeleton found under the Opera was indeed Erik's. Had the ring with the initials "C.D." and everything. AND the skeleton's skull was assymetrical -- meaning the person had a deformity.

Fourth, the initials she supposedly found on the walls can't be dated by carbon dating. Carbon dating, which her friend is using to date everything, is now obselete. A real scientist would have all the up-to-date technology.

It's all really fishy to me.

~ Zelda de le Fantôme

[Countess Cain]

I didn't mean I believed in her one hundred percent or anything... I just meant that she posted some interesting things. I don't really believe in "Catherine" or his having three kids or anything. You can't always trust internet accounts anyway, so you have to read stuff with a grain of salt.

[phantomphreak]

Originally posted by Zelda de le Fantome
Fourth, the initials she supposedly found on the walls can't be dated by carbon dating. Carbon dating, which her friend is using to date everything, is now obselete. A real scientist would have all the up-to-date technology.

It's all really fishy to me.

~ Zelda de le Fantôme

I agree with what your saying, but you can never know the truth when reading on the internet.

But for the carbon dating, I was skeptical about that, but if you think about it, she was doing this for 15 years, or so she says. It could have been done sometime in those 15 years when there wasn't the most up-to-date technology.

[Christine Daaé]

That is true; I had forgotten about that. However, Khamun of Persia, who I believe is also a member of this board, wrote on PhantomFans.net:

So this is the infamous Cecilia that got mad at Carrie for mentioning her research?! I agree with another poster on this thread. I find that strange that someone would post her own research very publically on the internet on a forum, her own, and then get upset when it was mentioned on another better-known site. Paranoia perhaps? She is not confident in her findings? It isn't normal behavior for a "true" researcher excited about their "true" discovery. They would want to tell the whole world, so their theories and discovery could be tested by discussion, analysis and further research by others. Highly unprofessional for a researcher IMO. More the behavior of a plagiarist afraid of exposure, IMO. Oh Khanum! Behave!

I fully admit, I have not entirely finished reading her little dissertation. I stopped from boredom, because she writes with the details of someone who is spinning a detective/mystery novel, not someone who is documenting her research finds. A researcher is more interested in documenting their findings objectively, not spinning an entertaining tale how they went about doing it. While method is every bit as important as findings when relating a research, she isn't really divulging much about her method objectively, is she?

True documentation of the books, records, etc. would have been important here, if this were real research and not an entertaining story. Forget her stupid defense of keeping the records house anonymous. This is obviously a public records place. They let her in with no credentials, didn't they? (Oh wait! I forgot about her good looks! It opens doors to all of France, I know!) They could care less, if more people came to them to do research. That is the reason they exist. This makes about as much sense as keeping the name of a public library secret.

There is all this mysterious "cloak and dagger" crap in this story. Opera house workers and complete strangers were just mysteriously calling her up on international long distance and coming "out of the woodwork" for her, months after her inquiries, like they have nothing better to do than think about her and her questions in the interval. Ah! I forgot! She is so good-looking, they would of course remember her and save her contact information, in order to please such a beauty.

Did anyone else get struck with all the unnecessary details? Who else didn't really give a damn how handome she thought Cullen was and the embarassment she felt at having such thoughts, when she had just met him moments before? Oh Khanum, behave!!

Anyway, here are my direct observations so far:

She has not really come up with any new "hard" fact that wasn't already known before, has she? She has strung them together into an interesting story, that's all. For instance, the information concerning the veiled workman on the Opera House construction site is not new. This was known before and mentioned by Gaston Leroux in his journals. She acts like she does not know this, when she ponders if Gaston Leroux might have even looked at the same material she was looking at when he was researching his book. Duh! **cough-cough**

Isn't it amazing the rather free access to the entire Opera House she had, right down to the lowest levels? She must be a "very special" VIP, or maybe the management was just impressed with her hunger for knowledge. She has no professional credentials that would afford her such privilege. Forgive me, I shouldn't be so suspicious. Let us just say, for the sake of argument, the management was so overwhelmingly charmed by her good looks in this instance again, they swung the "welcome" doors wide open. I will just say my thoughts on this point are based on jealousy, because I know I will never have such an amazing reception when I tour Palais Garnier, but then I am not near as beautiful in looks, as she is, I am sure.

I had to smile when reading the section about her carbon dating expert and his dating the initals "C.D." scratched on the wall. I won't go into the scientific details, but this is bogus. First, C-14 dating has fallen out of vogue due to its inacuracies. Just read up some of the write-ups on the internet concerning the research on the Shroud of Turin, if you want more lay person education on this rather old method of dating and the much better and cheaper methods that now exist. Why choose this?

Anyhow, her expert is really going to be dating the dirt on the walls, not the actual signature, with this technique. You do realize this? This is what makes C-14 dating, and a few other techniques like it, imperfect. Too much indirect inference IMO. Even if one would argue that he is dating the disruption of layers of dirt compared to the undisrupted layers of dirt in the surrounding area, how can he be sure he did not further disrupt the collected dirt when he removed it to take it to the lab?

There are far better methods to do what he is attempting to do when dating layers of dirt. If he were such a good dating expert, he should be adept at a variety of of methods and chosen a more accurate, up-to-date method for the project he was attempting.

By the way, why is this dating detail concerning this signature "CD" so important to the story anyhow? Did I miss something, or is this a totally loose, unnecessary detail? Perhaps it comes out later in the tale?

OH WAIT!

The C-14 dating expert didn't even use his scientific methods of C-14 dating to date that initial scratched in the dirt, did he! He just "looked" at that signature and the dirt with his "naked eye" and knew it was from the 1930's-1940's. Man, he is talented! He is good! So why mention he is an expert a carbon dating at all? Why not just say, "I brought Superman with me and he knew the age of the initial by using his x-ray vision." It would have been just as believable. She lost any claim of professional research logic with me here.

It is amazing that this same C-14 dating expert is also an expert at dating the ages of subjects in an old group photograph. Wow! The subject was veiled and shirtless, busy working, but he could still tell the man was approximately 25 years old. She admits she herself could not guess an age, but he could. What makes him such an expert? His C-14 dating skills? Hah!

From this dating of age of a figure among a group in an old photograph, we have an age that can be matched to a list of workers and their ages on an old workplace document, thus giving us a name to the mysterious veiled man. This is not exactly as accurate as 2+2=4. No, far from it. It is a wild guess, one of many undocumented, wild guesses our dear Cecilia seems to make.

From this wild guess, we are to learn all these details about Mr. Vachon. We have no hard evidence, other than this wild and unreliable guess, that Mr Vachon really is the veiled workman, do we? This is where I really began to lose interest in her tale.

Okay, so Khanum was a little, shall we say, harsh about Cecilia's good looks. I'll agree there. However, most of what she said I find to ring true.

And great. Now there's a war between the members of PFN and Angelofmusik.com. Of course, the members of Angelofmusik.com are saying things even worse than what the members of PFN said. Even worse. So I have no respect for them now. And according to these people, the members of PFN are not even older than fifteen. Did they even look? The average poster in that thread was born in the early 80s. Sultana of Persia is even older than Cecilia. So I think everybody should just come off it.

Just my two cents.

~ Zelda de le Fantôme

[phantoms_nemo]

I think that Leroux based the Phantom off of a real person because back then people where less accepting of people with disfigurations. He would still be in pain emotionally because of being shunned out of society.

[YoungGiry]

Denying His existence is dangerous..

[The_Persian]

Eriks real! He has to be!
There is no way that anyone could make me believe otherwise. I am sure a lot of other people on this board feel that way too, but my best friend thinks I'm joking. ::grumbles::

How could so many people be in love with someone that never existed?

[Erik]

I believe that Leroux's story is true. I think that there could have been a few little twists in there, of course, but I think that everything happened. The Phantom was rel, Christine was real...everyone. The names may have been slightly different, but it was true! (Well, I think so).

[welshrose]

I think it's real! I read "The Essential Phantom of the Opera" by Leonard Wolf, complete with footnotes and illustrations. Leroux's story could have been based, however somewhat, on fact. Victor Hugo apparently wrote "Notre Dame de Paris" (AKA" The Hunchback of Notre Dame") after seeing the word "Fate" carved into a wall in the belltower. So, one just has to wonder--"Who put it there?". Who knows...but it's always nice to lose yourself in a good book such as "Phantom" for a while!

[opera_ghost_lives]

The story is BASED on something real, that happened, but no one knows the whole truth, except the ones that where there. Which are now, probably deceased. The names are REAL people, my sister, who is OCD FREAK with POTO, read and researched it, and it really did happen. He was a deformed man, who fell in love with a beautiful blonde blue-eyed opera singer. She was stubborn, and left him, for the pansy of a man: The Vicomte Raoul de Chagny...

The story has been streeched ((sp? I am very tired, and it's 1 in the morning...so forgive me....)) and not all of it is true. Some must have been made up, and some not. The facts, like his face in the book, being so disorted, and like a skeleton, is so not true, but the fact the he was born with a partly disfigured face....is true.

:phanc1:

[Christine Daaé]

Where is this research? That hardly lines up with the Eric and Christine Dahé story. There was no Vicomte Raoul de Chagny. There were a lot of de Changy -- yes, de Changy -- families, but none with any vicomte named Raoul.

Christine Dahé was a chorus girl/ballerina, not a famous opera singer. The full story can be found here: www.phantomoftheopera.info/cellar.htm.

I'm interested in hearing what your sister has researched, but right now, I doubt it.

~ Zelda

[opera_ghost_lives]

I don't know where it is. I do not have OCD for POTO. All I know is that I have seen many many versions of it. And...you are wrong....sorry. But, the Vicomte is real. This is a real story, but the truth was streached. ((sp? again...)) I am not totally sure, but I think Erik was real, and Christine Daaé, and Raoul de Chagny.

[Christine Daaé]

If this is so, then why are there no records of Christine Daaé, or Raoul de Chagny? People have searched and searched, and found nothing. There was a Christine Nilsson, who sang in the 1860s at the Paris Opéra -- that may be who you're thinking of.

Cite your sources, and then we might believe you.

~ Zelda

[sunshine]

I believe truly and deeply that POTO is real, I dont know why I believe it is true but I just do. When I read the book by Leroux the characters were very detailed and indepth, I couldnt believe that someone would just make that up. Plus the Persians account of it all convinced me all the more, and Leroux truly made it sound as if he too deeply believed that his own story was real. Besides he sympathizes with Erik as if some great injustice was done to him and he should tell Eriks story so the world could read it. Sorry for going on and on but I truly believe POTO is real :D

[Black Ribbon]

I (like Crystal) think that POTO is real. So ditto everything she said ;). I'm going to France and I really, really hope that I can go to the Opera Gariner (sp?) and see if I can go beneath it.

[AAW0487]

I do believe that the Phantom did exist. I have never been to Paris, but the Opera House there would defentally be somewhere to start researching, which i'm sure most people have done. The life/story of the Phantom has been retold many times, but I do believe that with whatever names the characters had, where ever the Phantom lived at one point or another he was alive, but I hope that his life ended in happiness rather than sadness.

[goldenflower141]

I do believe it is real. It has to be! I don't know why it couldn't exist... anything is truly possible.

[Lia Lecordier]

I think that it is very possible for it to be nonfictional. And after Steve's information, I'm almost positive. I mean, there wasn't any magic involved, he was simply an ingenious ventriloquist who was good with springs and mirrors. The book went way too much into detail to be fictional.

[Phantomgirl05]

I think the story could be based on or inspired by real life events, but perhaps all the names of the characters were changed to fictional names? That happens a lot. So just because there might not be records of a Christine Dae or Erik or Raoul from The Phantom, that doesn't mean that this kind of story actually didn't happen to real life people of different names.

[Phantom's Sonnet]

You know I have always wondered if the Phantom, Erik was real , I mean he seems too real to be made up. That would be so cool , the Paris Opera House actually being haunted by a Phantom,just imagine...

[Parisian Phantom]

I actually never thought about this issue before. While reading the book, in its introduction, it explained the fact that it is based upon a legend. But still, the events are described in so much detail, and so are the characters, especially Erik. But alas, I have never heard of any kind of proof that would state the true existence of a body, of Erik's body, so I wouldn't be sure. I also tried to acces the link that Zelda posted above, but it unfortunetly doesn't work anymore.

Still, there are a lot of pros and cons to this issue, and I would really like it to be cleared up one day. In the meantime, I'll just consider it fiction. :)

[Christine Daaé]

Yes, I know the link doesn't work. The site it was on is now gone. However, I have the article saved in a Word file. I don't know whether I have the right to share it, so I'll put in a synopsis as brief as I can make it.

In 1879, there was a stonemason working at the Palais Garnier named, simply, Eric. No one knows his last name, but according to some former employees of the Garnier, we do know that he was part of a traveling circus from the time he was eight years old, and that he went to Persia for a time. He had a "lopsided" face -- his features were assymetrical. He was simply a stonemason -- not one of the master architects, nothing like that.

In 1907, when they were planning the "time capsule" to keep recordings of famous opera stars, they came across an apartment in the cellar. They also, supposedly, found Eric's skeleton, with a gold ring on his finger. This ring, which was lost in subsequent wars, had the initials C.D. engraved on it.

Christine Dahé was a chorus girl/ballerina whom Eric fell in love with. He watched her from afar for a while, but knew that she could never love him the way he was. So he came up with an alter ego, "the Phantom of the Opera", who would wear an evening suit, a top hat, and a mask.

He seduced Christine, and took her down to his apartment for two weeks. No one knows why, but eventually she left him. He couldn't stand it -- so he locked himself in his apartment, had one of his acquaintances wall up the door outside, and starved himself to death.

That's what certain former employees would say, anyway. The vault will be opened on June 28th, 2007, when hopefully we'll find some answers. I know I'll be there, for sure.

~ Zelda

[The Phantom]

There are several explanations to whether the story of the Phantom of the Opera in the books could be real. Employees could just play along with the story to satisfy people that go to the Garnier, or to just boost publicity.

I would definitely be interested in the contents of the time capsul... too bad it's a year and a half away. :(

[Christine Daaé]

I would think that it was a publicity stunt, too, but POTO is hardly popular at all in France, and all the other employees try to play down the POTO story. In fact, I think the employees that gave out this story got fired because of it. Everyone else at the Garnier, whenever confronted with the story, simply say that it never happened.

Then again, the Opera wouldn't be proud of its past -- the way it treated its workers, and the promiscuity of the chorus girls and ballerinas.

Luckily for me, after I graduate in early June of 2007, Maman said we could go to Paris immediately after. So I'll be there when the time capsule is opened! *squees*

~ Zelda

[Reza Khan]

Originally posted by Christine Daaé
Luckily for me, after I graduate in early June of 2007, Maman said we could go to Paris immediately after. So I'll be there when the time capsule is opened! *squees*
Ooh, I am so jealous! I would love to be there so much! Maybe I'll skip my NYC trip this summer and save my money to go to Paris... ::dies dreaming::

[Phantom's Sonnet]

Hmm interesting, there was actually a Erik and Christine? And a vault that will open soon.I am definately going to beg my parents to take me to Paris.

[Sarieish]

Okay, after reading through this thread I feel like I should go off and find the book, read it, then do a little research of my own. Whenever i read anything that is historically based, if ti's written well, I always wonder to myself about it. Was it based on real event? Did these people exsist? Ifr so, what happened after?

I dunno, I'm always wondering to myself about these things myself of course, haha, but this all (the previous information mentioned in this thread) leaves me without a doubt of course. Even though this could all be true, I also beleive that the entire story has been modified for entertainment purposes.

I beleive that the opening of the capsul will provide some information, however, I also beleive that it will make us beg and pleade for more information. It always happens that way, whenever we find an answer, we long for more. The only people who really will know the whole truth, the complete truth (even if just in chunks) will be the people who were there at the time.

Meh... Curious creature we humans are arn't we?

[soprano101]

so do i. it all seemed so real in the movies and play how did that man write it? it has to be real.

[BlueMoon]

Id like to believe its real but its hard for me to believe in something as dramatic as this. But Im sure some parts of the story are based on real life events

[Melody0798]

There's a part of me that absoulutely believes it, another that doubts, but the believing side is winning. For some reason it just struck me and I can't seem to believe that it never happened, I try to explain this to others and they look at me like I'm insane, but I really do believe in it, I believe in a lot of things, and POTO is just one of them.

[Silverstream]

I definately believe!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Nad]

I never wondered about if it were real. I guess I was a bit young to even question it. But now that I think of it, I do wonder if it were real or not. The characters seem so real that you kind of wonder if it were all made believe or not. I mean, I used to picture everything like if I were there.
After reading a couple of posts, I never knew that the places or the people were indeed real.

[Minoru Inoue]

It actually happened -- for a fact. If you go to Paris, like my drama teacher did, and take a tour of the Opera Populaire, they tell you all about the real "haunting."

My teacher even went beyond the roped off area ('cuz she's a rebel) and she saw the lake under the opera house. The tourguides say that they STILL don't know/understand all the trap doors or where they're located.

And Gaston Leroux lists his credentials for the story -- it's based off fact.

[~*~Rachelle~*~]

My music teacher loves the phantom of the opera and he went to paris not that long ago and said that him and his friends were at the ruins of the opera house and it had a really creepy vibe to it and they felt they had to leave because they are wussys lol but anyways it was freezing in the ruins then they stepped outside and it was boiling hot so i've never been there but it could be haunted.
Anyways i believe that erik existed and i don't know why and i absoloutley do not believe he looked like Gaston Leroux's book says he did.

that story of him taking christine into his apartment for 2 weeks and starving himself to death is creepy and really sad i really hope that isn't true :(

[Chance_or_Destiny]

I understand where everybodies idea's come from and respect them, yet i still have doubt about the factuality of the situtation. Like some others have pointed out I beleive that certain aspects are true and others aren't. For instance, I beleive that their was a disfigured, cruel man that haunted teh Opera, and easily could have lived underneath in the lake. It is easily beleiveable that he could have become obcessed with female and did in fact kidnap her.

Overall I'd credit it being historically accurate (for the most part) and it will always be a faublous book on my list whether it's fact or fiction.

[IamErik771]

I found out something rather interesting a while ago. In this book about the Opéra Garnier, (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/2864040751/ref=pd_rvi_gw_1/104-4993582-1173502?redirect=true&%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155) which is also sold at the Paris Opéra's gift shop, there's a page devoted to PotO which includes the following passage:

"The account of the death of the stagehand, Joseph Buquet, found hanging in the Opera, is taken practically word for word from the Petits mémoires de l'opéra by Charles de Boigne (1857)"

So . . . That part was also based in truth! Is anyone else getting goosebumps?

[northangel27]

I believe that the story is loosely based on truth. I believe this very strongly for very personal reasons, but I never thought that there was anything factual to back it up. Recently I came across this fascinating interview given by someone we all know very well. It can be found here: http://www.ladyghost.com/sandra1.html It is on the second page of this interview where things start to get very interesting. To sum up, the individual being interviewed has the opportunity to meet Leroux's grandaughter who reveals something very interesting. Read it, it is quite delightful.

[ErikClaudin]

Someone has probably already mentioned this, but, I read somewhere that the kidnapping - or disappearance, it was labeled as- of a soprano did occur at the opera house, although it took place later than Leroux had in POTO and she reappeared soon after. Also, there were rumors of a ghost of the opera.

With info like this, I believe it may have happened. I mean, Leroux was imaginitive (look at 'Dinner of the Busts' by him! Weird!) but POTO is too detailed and rich to be a fictional web.

[queen]

I can't make my mind up.In Christmas I'm going to do some research,read about Naser al din shah[who was the reigning king when erik was in persia]and automa,which Leroux claimed erik invented.And a bunch of other things,like the Opera Garnier.I can't start my research now because I have school.

[ErikClaudin]

OOH, that's bad. I hate when school hinders creative processes.

Also, a chandelier did fall onto a concierge member in the 1800s.

[MystMoonstruck]

I, too, would do thorough research before I make my decision whether it's an urban legend or not.

For example, it was revealed when "Beauty & The Beast" debuted that many people do live in subway tunnels and abandoned structures beneath New York City. They simply gave them a different spin as "The Tunnel People".

In some film versions, they have Erik injured, falling into the river and ending up at the site that will be his underground lair. How tricky would it be to get an organ in there, let alone the other larger decorative touches? Frankly, it would be a dreadful environment for an instrument as fussy as an organ. Erik would be facing a lot of maintenance!

I suppose all this is to say: I'm open to the possibility of aspects of the story being drawn from real life.

[northangel27]

Great point about the organ. I just thought that was so funny when I read it, to think of Erik having to lug an organ down there and then keep it maintained in all that damp. I don't think he would have had the patience. He probably would have kicked a hole in the damned thing the first time he was having a bad day and it wouldn't behave.

I doubt that anyone living in the opera cellars would have had so elaborate a "house" as Erik is portrayed as having in the stage or movie versions. I think it would have been a much more humble home.

As has been mentioned, the Leroux story could very well have been based on fact, but as for more modern incarnations, I am afraid that they are mostly born entirely from the imaginations of their creators (for instance Webber gave the role of the Persian to Madame Giry, who was only a minor character in the Leroux novel). That is not to say that they can't be entertaining in their own way.

[Angel's Muse]

Real? Well...I don't think Leroux's story was accurate and completely real, but I do believe it was based on truth. The character of Christine Daae was also apparently based on a real person.

There are many aspects of Leroux's novel that I think really could have happened- the chandelier being one of them. However, I believe that while it was roughly based on truth, it is a rather fantastical story that could not possibly have happened exactly.

[MystMoonstruck]

There are millions of novels with characters so vivid that they would seem to be based on someone real. A vast number of them are not. That's what writing is about--trying to write convincing characters and situations. Sherlock Holmes is another character people believe has a historical basis, but I don't believe one person has been pointed out as the "real" Holmes.

Many novels have been written in Leroux's style, quoting from documents and citing sources that actually do not exist. H.P. Lovecraft and the writers who followed his lead created a library of books to quote from, including The Necronomicon. There are people who actually searched for these nonexistent books! For a joke, someone did write a sort-of Necronomicon, a fake book about a fake book.

Writers do this all of the time. Look what happened with The DaVinci Code--which I haven't read and don't intend to though I survived one viewing of the film. The author cited all of these places, organizations, etc., sending people on so many wild goose chases. Manipulation of reality is average in fiction.

I'm closer to doubter than believer, unless it's one of those little incidents that grows with the telling.

[the_raoul_fanclub]

Yes, it's just the style of writing that makes it seem real but of course it isn't.
Why would anybody have a condition that made them have a skull for a head and like no other features.
When I have been to the opera garnier there is no mention of anything like this.

[Victoria]

*claps hands* I do believe in Phantoms! I do! I do!

Okay no more jokes from me but there seriously no doubt in my mind that it was real. Sure, not word for word, but pretty close...or at least my girlish day dreams hope it is :D

[death_shadows]

i beleive it. i beleive erik really existed. no doubt in my mind....

[F-warp]

Sorry but...no...just, no. Erik is a wonderful character but I don't believe for one minute that he ever really existed. Great as it is, there are certain aspects to the character that don't seem justified. It's kind of like what Alan Moore once said about Batman:

People, I'm sure, have been born with above average intelligence and extreme deformities. I think this would lead to a life in isolation, depression and probably a whole lot of mental disorders or at least personal problems. I don't, however, think it would lead someone to build an opera house riddled with traps and secret passageways which they could haunt in the guise of a ghost in an elaborate scheme to exact vengeance upon the human race (or at least a small part of it). Besides, one should only be so fortunate that their deformities wouldn't hinder an operation like that. Kind of hard to stalk about in the shadows when you've got a tumor the size of a football growing out your back or something.

And of course the whole affair with Christine is really way too convenient to be true. I mean, her father dying, then the ghost pretending to be her father (sort of) and then it turning out he looks like a corpse which is of course another reference to her dead dad (even though I sometimes doubt Leroux put that in on purpose)... come on people.

I do believe Erik was based on a real man. His name was Joseph Merrick, otherwise known as "The Elephant Man". Just look at the name: Merrick...Erik, sound familiar? Merrick wrote proze and poetry himself and according to the doctor that took care of him, Merrick's greatest wish was to go to a hospital for the blind where he could find a woman that wasn't frightened of his apearance and would be able to love him. That could have easily been the inspiration for Erik's artistic and softer side. Besides, all the events surrounding the Elephant Man went on right around the time Leroux was writing the book. The other main inspiration was of course the story of the famous chandelier crash at the opera plus the vast labyrinth and lake beneath the Palais Garnier.

I think there was a masked villain from french detective literature that also served as an inspiration for Erik. Can't quite think of his name now.

[silver moon]

yeah! i knew he couldn`t just have taken it all from thin air:D

it has a link to reality:D and who knows how much that is still hidden in the shadows of history? I believIbielieve.. *goes crasy and jumping around like shrek`s donkey*
:p:p

[death_shadows]

lol i beleive as well. and i do sometimes wonder what has been hidden as well.....

[sweet_intoxication]

I'd love to believe that POTO really existed. How wonderful would that be. I don't think I need to explain, just what everybody above me said. I'd love to meet a character just like Erik, who is passionate about music, a genius, yet slightly tortured...Perhaps not a murderer, but these are just several of the features which make him...him.

[angelofthenight]

I'd like to think it was real...if nothing else but for the story in itself. I don't mean Erik's unhappiness or the murders or anything like that. But the romantic aspect of the story. I think the POTO is a beautiful love story and that's one of the major reason why I think, why I know it is real.

[sweet_intoxication]

For those who already haven't, I suggest you to google Joseph Merrick as I did that last night....Scary images actually. The deformity was more serious than The Phantom's - In fact, if Leroux really based it upon Mr Merrick aka The Elephant Man and he did kidnap Christine, then yes...I'd go crazy and scream. Click onto the wikipedia article.

Thanks to F-Warp for the info about Joseph Merrick and there certainly are similarities with Erik & Merrick. haha

[death_shadows]

oh i googled it. to be honest, he looked deformed to me, but yet i didnt think he looked scary or anything like that.....it that weird? idk.....
anyway, when i googled it i also found a thing with about 9 other deformed ppl aside from him. none of them as deformed as merrick but still i found it to be interresting. heres the link if ur interrested in looking.

http://listverse.com/bizarre/top-10-human-sideshow-freaks/

[phantom]

I believe it is real... Gaston is smart, no doubt about it, but not that smart to write that incredible story. I've been to the paris garnier where the story takes place, and I found evidence from the book that could possibly make Erik true. Plus, I've known and seen people with deformities like Erik's and it could be possible that there was a man, who had a deformity and hid down in the cellers when it was built...

[death_shadows]

i believe that as well. i would love to visit the lake and all......

[Hidden Away]

I wish that it all was real. I'd go back in time and them I'd fuss at Christine for leaving him and at Raoul for being Raoul and I'd be friends with Meg...and I don't know what happened to Erik the 2nd week after she left. Book wise I know he died, but movie...I don't know...there was a rose on her grave...sooo he still lived?

[DarkGondolier]

I believe it was based on a group of real people and events, not necessarily related to one another. For example, there is proof that there was a real opera singer named Christine Nilsson whose life seemed similar to POTO Christine's, but no proof that she was involved with people similar to Raoul or Erik. Also, one of the counterweights on the chandelier really did fall and kill one person. Not the entire chandelier, however. I think Leroux took interesting elements of the time and wove them together in a story that was based on real things, but was fiction as well.

An interesting fact, it's possible that Erik may have actually been a de Chagny. There has been some evidence shown that supports this.

[sweet_intoxication]

There has been another poster on the official site forum, with similar discussions where Josph Merrick met a Princess. Her name was Alexandra. But she was engaged already...SO...could the REAL Christine be:

Princess Alexandra?
The real Roul to be the one who Princess Alexandra was engaged to?
And the real Erik to be Joseph Merrick?

[The Countess]

If you want to talk logically, I would have to agree with DarkGondolier. If I want to be lost in my girlish fantasies, then I would have to say that there once was a man named Erik who happened upon a young girl named Christine...

[death_shadows]

i still believe in it, and i hope to visit the opera house one day.

[angelgirl]

I BELIEVE! I totally believe Erik existed and all that stuff actually happened! The book was way too detailed to be made-up.
A.G.

[death_shadows]

did u ever think that it was all real....but that he just changed the names of the ppl in the story?

[Hidden Away]

that would totally be awesome...it would be like meeting a celebrity...except in that time he would be a notorious celebrity :) and :(....isn't it ironic how he's so like by women all over now?....

[death_shadows]

yah it is ironic O_O

[Kiri_Giry]

Ironic things annoy me!!! :P

[BrokenVow]

To a certain level I believe in the Phantom of the Opera. I believe it is possible that Erik (or Eric) was indeed related to the de Changy family. How else, in the novel, did the Count know the way to Erik's home? I believe they were brothers and Raoul's actual part was not as huge. He was brought in by Leroux more than anything.

If we look at Kristina (or Christine as she thought of herself) Nilsson there are a few interesting points to this woman. She did indeed sing in the production of Faust. Her first husband, August Rouzaud, allowed her to sing anywhere she wanted, except for Paris. I find this interesting because Nilsson did continue to sing until she was 45 but not in Paris as that is what her husband wanted. He died after becoming mentally ill 1882. She then remarried, to someone who would coisidently be called Angel. He was a Count.

Just food for thought more than anything.

[witch]

I believe that anyone can conjure anything they imagine. I have a man I use in my own stories that i made up long ago and whom now seems as real to me as anybody.

However there are some things about the phantom and the way they did it all that makes me wonder if there is a slight truth to it. I mean aren't most stories taken a little bit from life?

[Hidden Away]

I wonder, and I used to believe that it was real, but now i question the magic :( My life has messed itself up! NO!!!!
anyways.
I'm going to France in a few years, and I really want to just walk through the Paris Opera House and maybe I'll 'feel' the vibe of Phantom. I bet a zillion tourists have been through there just because of Phantom. It would be funny if there was this girl that would yell around and completely freak out. Whoa, wait that sounds like something I would do. (Not really!)

[The Countess]

I don't think that the story line by line really happened. I think that it's possible that someone lived under the opera house and God knows I know it's haunted. So most likely no, but never say never with these type of things. Maybe one day they'll prove that he once did exsist. I just doubt it is all.

[death_shadows]

I don't think that the story line by line really happened. I think that it's possible that someone lived under the opera house and God knows I know it's haunted. So most likely no, but never say never with these type of things. Maybe one day they'll prove that he once did exsist. I just doubt it is all.

it would be cool if they could prove it existed. i believe it is very possible though....i mean it is possible someone cold live under the opera house....

[Hidden Away]

I liked to believe the Opera is haunted, and the idea of someone living underneath it all would be cool, but of course the story line didn't happen....right?

[EriklovesLea]

This is something which is so interesting to speculate, especially after you read Leroux' book. He writes it like it is based on fact, and there were things found underground at the Garnier when they went into the labyrinth like a phonograph with old recordings and even a skeleton which was obviously deformed.
Truth is stranger than fiction, as you well know.
Anne:tp4:

[MllePaula]

As much fun as it is to believe that Leroux's story is real, the original drafts of his manuscript do not support that at all.

One of the regular posters at one of the other Phantom forums I visit regularly has been doing some research in Paris and has looked over Leroux's manuscripts and other related papers and it definitely contradicts the idea that his novel was a true story.

The research uncovered a lot of interesting true stories and elements that clearly figured into the story, but that's where reality ends and fiction begins.

The thread about the research is a fascinating read.

http://www.phansonline.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=405

It fits with what I've always believed...that Leroux, like many other novelists, combined many real elements into work of fiction.

[RedAndBlackMasked]

Your right Erik is too amazing to be a part of my imagination. It is true in my eyes.

[phantom's_rose]

*wipes brow* Wow, I just went through and read all 10 pages of this thread! Agh! And I'd like to point out that there are like...two links that aren't broken. *grumble*

Okay. I'm pretty much convinced that the story of the Phantom is real. Leroux's novel cites so many things, and it says he talks to the Persian, and all this stuff that you have all put up really makes me think that it has to be real in some way or another. Sure, I think that there is twists in it...it can't all be real, I don't think. But everything that has been posted must mean SOMETHING. I mean, why would there be all this research being done, and all this evidence about Erik and Christine, and so many other things that make it seem true? Everything that James and Zelda said make it seem so real. I would quote them, but that would be a LOT of quotes. What James said on the first page seems foolproof.

So yeah. I think something has to be true of the story. Maybe it's not the same story that we all know, but I'm almost positive that it was real. I would go on, but you all get my point, right?

~Emmy

[angel of the night]

I personally believe the story was true. and when writing the book he just added a little bit to the truth to color it up, just like most authors do. but I am 100% convinced that it was a true story. And yes the book is based on a true story.